Born Dead

[webdog]

Sin does bring forth death and we all died in Adam because of his sin. Babies die even if they do not ever sin.

Ephesians 2:1 does indeed say we die for our sins.

Also Christ died. Animals die. Physical death doesn't mean you are a sinner.

 

[Winman]

Yes we are reading the same bible, but what became her lusts was from deception and that was not true of Adam. If you notice there was a point when she did not have those desires. And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof. This is not about her seeing the tree for the first time. She never felt about the tree like she did until she was lied to.
The point is that while she had those feelings they were brought about through deception (lies) from satan. In the case of Adam that was not the case. It is not said of Adam that he ate for any of those reasons. Adam just rebelled and ate with full knowledge. She believed the tempter and but Adam in the mist of believing God rejected God and ate any way.
So prior to her temptation she was not created with sinful lusts. The woman should have been protected by the man, but he did not do that and instead followed her into his own sin and rebellion bringing the fall.

You are reversing scripture. Jam 1:14-15 says "every man" is tempted when he is drawn away of his "own lust", and enticed.

You are saying the opposite, you are saying temptation brings lust.

All Satan did was appeal to her natural lusts. Eve's own lusts tempted her to sin.

It was the same when Satan tempted Jesus. He knew Jesus had fasted for 40 days and was hungry. That hunger originated from within Jesus by his flesh before Satan arrived on the scene. Satan suggested that Jesus could turn a stone to bread, knowing he was already feeling the strong pull of extreme hunger.

 

[12strings]

So would you be one of those from the other post who would hold that those who have never heard about Christ or anything in the bible will, or can be saved, since they don't know God's law?

No per Romans 1

It seems that some on this line of discussion would say that if Paul had died before having heard of the law of God, he would not have been responsible before God for his sin, since he had no knowledge that he was violating God's law.

 

[webdog]

It seems that some on this line of discussion would say that if Paul had died before having heard of the law of God, he would not have been responsible before God for his sin, since he had no knowledge that he was violating God's law.

I'm sure there might be some that believe that, but if man rejects the truths given to him (creation, conscious, desire for immortality and having been placed in the perfect location and place in time to seek Him), God is under no obligation to give him further truth (gospel).

 

[Aaron]

God is under no obligation to man to give him anything. Period. It is grace and mercy only, and that not based on any response of any man.

 

[convicted1]

God is under no obligation to man to give him anything. Period. It is grace and mercy only, and that not based on any response of any man.

True on everything you posted here Brother Aaron!! Kudos!! I am not being deceitful in saying this either. Kudos again.

Now, to respond to what I bolded in your post.

This is who He offers Grace to:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

1 Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Now, here is who truly gets salvation:

2 Chr. 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Isa. 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Matt. 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

1 Pet. 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.


So you see, Brother Aaron, the Grace that bringeth salvation has appeared unto all men, but it only given to those who humble themselves under the mighty hand of God. Have a blessed weekend, Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

-It is not incongruous to say that God both gives us a soul, and that our soul and its spiritual state is passed down from our parents. Just as we would be right to say "God gives all men life." But the way he does it is by 2 parents having a child.

But the bible doesn't teach this, does it? Or at least I can find no where where this is taught. But I could be wrong. The "union" of sperm-egg is what causes the physical body to be created. God molds this body as He it pleases Him, this is what the body means being "in Adam", which is our physical body. The physical is created from the cursed ground(caused by Adam's sin), and due to this curse, it will die. The soul dies after God imputes sin unto us, and not before.

-These verses are clearly at least in part referring to physical death, and I would argue that that is probably the primary meaning to the people of Israel. The Spiritual death spoken of in Eph. 2 is something different.

The soul dying due to sinning is not physical death, but God imputing sin unto them for knowingly transgressing His Law. The soul that sinneth, IT shall die. It is referring to the soul. In Deuteronomy 1, you can see where the little ones, who did not know the difference between good and evil, He allowed them to enter in because they were found not guilty in His eyes. In Jonah, God sent him to tell them of the destruction that was to come. The king made a decree that all of them were to repent, and even the king sat in sackcloth and ashes. God then told Jonah that He repented of doing this, and that they(Ninevah), did not know their left hand from their right. After Jonah had warned them, they understood, and not before. Before Jonah's warning, they had a cloak for their sins, but after Jonah told them about it, and what God was prepared to do, they repented, and God spared that city.

-I know for a fact that my baby knowingly and willfully disobeyed me before he was one year old. It was not the same kind of awareness of sin that an adult has, but he looked me in the eye did the thing He knew was "NO NO."
What causes him to do that other than an inborn tendancy to sin?

Here is where you see that even a baby can, and in fact does, sin. They know when they lie, they know when they do something that you don't want them to do, etc. But, what IS sin? It is a transgression of God's Law, correct? Now, when a baby takes a cookie after you have plainly told them no, and then you find them with it, they will say, "I got this cookie for you." Now, did they lie. You betcha! Did they know at two years old they were lying to God? No. This is where they sin, yes, but God doesn't impute this sin unto them.

Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 4:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

[Robert Snow]

Well it depends on what you mean by deliberate. She was not forced so in that sense it was deliberate, but she did it out of deception, not because she was saying I don't care what God says, I want this. Adam did however.

I agree, like I said, Eve was deceived, Adam was not. Good explanation, thanks.

 

[freeatlast]

You are reversing scripture. Jam 1:14-15 says "every man" is tempted when he is drawn away of his "own lust", and enticed.

You are saying the opposite, you are saying temptation brings lust.

All Satan did was appeal to her natural lusts. Eve's own lusts tempted her to sin.

It was the same when Satan tempted Jesus. He knew Jesus had fasted for 40 days and was hungry. That hunger originated from within Jesus by his flesh before Satan arrived on the scene. Satan suggested that Jesus could turn a stone to bread, knowing he was already feeling the strong pull of extreme hunger.

I am saying with the first couple they had no sinful lusts in their created state. Thye did have volition. Read the creation account. There was a time before Eve was deceived when she had not looked on the tree as something to desire. She had been told not to eat and just accepted it and was not interested in that tree. It took an outside force to deceive her to desire the tree. Not until the serpent deceived her did she eat. Adam out of no particular desire mentioned did eat. Adam was not deceived, but made a choice to ignor God's command.

Now about the Lord. The word lust is too strong as it has evil connotations in our language. Yes the Lord was hungry but that is not evil. While the devil temped Him the Lord did not feel the urge to comply. The Lord had one desire and that was to do the Father's will, not the will of satan. Unless the Father would supply Him food He was willing to die of starvation.

You are trying to use the current fallen nature of man's feelings as a comparison for what was happening at the fall and in the Lord Jesus. They are not the same. Here is an example. We all have different temptations. Not everything can cause desire in me that is may cause in another and the same wiht them. If someone comes to me and says to me lets go shoot up some drugs. I would not even have the slightest of feeling to do so yet it could be said I was tempted. There would be no battle at all for me in fact it would turn me off totally. Yet another person might either jump at the offer or have to battle the desires.
In the case of the Lord nothing that was ever offered Him outside the will of God did He ever feel to do. He never had a desire to do anything but the will of the Father. Any natural desire the Lord had never turned to improper wants (lusts). He never looked on a woman to lust. He never lusted to murder lie, steal, rape, profane, or any other thing that we as fallen creatures feel. The Lord was not walking around with those desires and just not giving into them as in an action or even as a thought process. They never had any root in Him. He had all the natural God given feelings but they never progressed to feel evil desires (lusts).

 

[freeatlast]

I agree, like I said, Eve was deceived, Adam was not. Good explanation, thanks.

[SIZE=+0]Yes Robert. We dare not try and compare our desires and feelings and our fallen nature with the first couple who had no fallen nature before the fall as it causes us to be confused as to what took place.
Her desires arose out of deception, not out of them already being there from creation. Without the deception of satan there is no reason to believe she would have ever ate.
[/SIZE]

 

[Cypress]

[SIZE=+0]Yes Robert. We dare not try and compare our desires and feelings and our fallen nature with the first couple who had no fallen nature before the fall as it causes us to be confused as to what took place.
Her desires arose out of deception, not out of them already being there from creation. Without the deception of satan there is no reason to believe she would have ever ate.
[/SIZE]

Freeatlast' this is a possible and not illogical inference from the text. But it is no different than the moot point and speculation that you were characterizing the question in the Perfect Children thread as being. We really dont know if the deception caused the desire or not.:love2:

 

[freeatlast]

Freeatlast' this is a possible and not illogical inference from the text. But it is no different than the moot point and speculation that you were characterizing the question in the Perfect Children thread as being. We really dont know if the deception caused the desire or not.:love2:

Thank you for the input, and I agree with you as I stated it in too absolute a manner. While I am not suggesting this is absolute as explained I am saying it is plausible. There may be better explanations but it has to be in line with the idea that the creation was not flawed with sin natures (sinful lusts) prior to the fall as some are suggesting.