Born Dead

[The Biblicist]

Romans 10:14 directly addresses HOW a person believes in Jesus. Paul simply asks "and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?" This question implies that what man lacks is knowledge, and that being taught about Jesus is what enables a man to believe.

You have a HALF truth here! Verbal instruction is essential to faith but it is not the only essential for gospel faith to exist. What you fail to understand is that DIVINE REVELATION that effectually imparts UNDERSTANDING of what has been heard is the creative power that produces faith. That is precisely why faith can be attributed to Christ as THE AUTHOR of it. For example, look at Christ's response to Peter's confession in Matthew 16:17. Mere audible words heard do not produce faith in any one however, without such, neither is faith produced in anyone. It is the COMBINATION of verbal impartation with DIVINE EFFECTUAL EMPOWERMENT THAT CREATES internal comprehension that is the essence of saving faith.

John 6:45 also shows how man is drawn, by being taught by the Father. Every man that has heard and learned from the Father shall come to Jesus.

No man can produce this internalization of comprehension of the gospel but God. He alone REVEALS Christ to the inward man with comprehension that is RECEIVED and UNDERSTOOD and that is precisely why WHOSOEVER is thus taught by God comes to Christ in faith as the internalization by God is inseparable from the essence of what saving faith IS! It is not merely a product of external audible instruction.

Paul likens the work of God REVEALING Christ within himself and others to a BIRTHING which the product (baby) has NO PART in producing at all (Gal. 1:16-17). Jesus flatly denies that such inward REVELATION has any cause found in "flesh and blood" but wholly of the Father (Mt. 16:17). Paul describes this impartation of INWARD LIGHT/KNOWLEGE as a CREATIVE COMMAND by God similar to Genesis 1:2-3 (2 Cor. 4:6).

The fact that God uses men to convey the EXTERNAL AUDIBLE gospel does not mean the "word only" will produce anything of and by itself apart from the INTERNAL EFFECTUAL command of God that REVEALS (not tries to reveal) Christ within by impartation of a specific KNOWLEGE of God through Christ in relationship to the sinner - 1 Thes. 1:4-5.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's the same heresy the first century gnostics used to spout, which was refuted. He was fully human, 100%...not just appeared human or 95% human. Of course He is unique...He is also 100% God!! That doesn't negate the former.

jesus was/is 100 human, but His humanity NOT as ours is now under the fall, as he was born as sinless Humanity, something ONLY Adam and Eve also ONLY ever had!

He was Not a sinner, as He did not receive the sin nature from Adam as ALL other humans have!

His was PERFECT humanity, not flawed and sinned affected as our was!

 

[Winman]

You have a HALF truth here! Verbal instruction is essential to faith but it is not the only essential for gospel faith to exist. What you fail to understand is that DIVINE REVELATION that effectually imparts UNDERSTANDING of what has been heard is the creative power that produces faith. That is precisely why faith can be attributed to Christ as THE AUTHOR of it. For example, look at Christ's response to Peter's confession in Matthew 16:17. Mere audible words heard do not produce faith in any one however, without such, neither is faith produced in anyone. It is the COMBINATION of verbal impartation with DIVINE EFFECTUAL EMPOWERMENT THAT CREATES internal comprehension that is the essence of saving faith.

And you cannot discern scripture. Matthew 16:17 does not say God made Peter believe in this verse, it says God REVEALED or made KNOWN that Jesus was the Son of God to Peter.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The word "revealed" means to make something known. Jesus is saying the reason Peter knows Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God is because the Father has revealed it to him.

Now how did God do that? Through the scriptures. The scriptures told of a Prophet that would come, whom the people called the Messiah or Christ. The scriptures described him so that the Jews would know what to look for.

Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

All of the disciples knew the scriptures. They knew the promise of "the Prophet", the Christ, the Messiah. And when they saw the works of Jesus they knew he was this promised Christ.

Jesus was simply saying that the Father had revealed to Peter that he was the Christ. He was not saying he was supernaturally zapped to have this knowledge.

Look what the disciples themselves said,

We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write,

No man can produce this internalization of comprehension of the gospel but God. He alone REVEALS Christ to the inward man with comprehension that is RECEIVED and UNDERSTOOD and that is precisely why WHOSOEVER is thus taught by God comes to Christ in faith as the internalization by God is inseparable from the essence of what saving faith IS! It is not merely a product of external audible instruction.

Care to show scripture to support this?

Paul likens the work of God REVEALING Christ within himself and others to a BIRTHING which the product (baby) has NO PART in producing at all (Gal. 1:16-17). Jesus flatly denies that such inward REVELATION has any cause found in "flesh and blood" but wholly of the Father (Mt. 16:17). Paul describes this impartation of INWARD LIGHT/KNOWLEGE as a CREATIVE COMMAND by God similar to Genesis 1:2-3 (2 Cor. 4:6).

What a bunch of hooey. Gal 1:16-17 says no such thing;

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

I agree that flesh and blood did not reveal who Jesus was, the scriptures did, and the scriptures come from the Father. Again, the disciples spoke of the Prophet of whom Moses DID WRITE.

And 2 Cor 4:6 does not say what you are saying.

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is saying that Jesus himself manifests God.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

If you want to know what the Father is like, look at Jesus, Jesus is the manifestation of the Father. This was not known by being supernaturally "zapped" but by experience with Jesus, with being with him day by day.

And how do we know what the Father is like? Were you walking down the street and God supernaturally zapped you with this knowledge? NO, EVERYTHING you know about Jesus and the Father is from either reading or hearing the scriptures, the word of God.

The fact that God uses men to convey the EXTERNAL AUDIBLE gospel does not mean the "word only" will produce anything of and by itself apart from the INTERNAL EFFECTUAL command of God that REVEALS (not tries to reveal) Christ within by impartation of a specific KNOWLEGE of God through Christ in relationship to the sinner - 1 Thes. 1:4-5.

Actually, the scriptures say the word only effectually works in those THAT BELIEVE it.

1 The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

You teach the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture says. You teach that the word effectually works to cause someone to believe, when scriptures says the word effectually works in those THAT BELIEVE.

Calvinism ----> Word works effectually ----> Man believes ---> FALSE

Scripture ----> Man believes ----> Word works effectually ---> TRUE

You teach the EXACT OPPOSITE of scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

actually...

the Father revealed to him thru the Holy Spirit that Jesus wasSon of God, justas the Spirit spoke to heart/mind of simeon!

 

[webdog]

jesus was/is 100 human, but His humanity NOT as ours is now under the fall, as he was born as sinless Humanity, something ONLY Adam and Eve also ONLY ever had!

He was Not a sinner, as He did not receive the sin nature from Adam as ALL other humans have!

His was PERFECT humanity, not flawed and sinned affected as our was!

If He wasn't like us, He wasn't fully human, as we are fully human.

If His humanity was perfect, he wouldn't have been tempted, bled or died.

Of course He wasn't a sinner, he never sinned (the very definition of the word). Having a sin nature doesn't make one a sinner, violating, God's law makes one a sinner, something Christ never did.

 

[BobRyan]

The fallen children of Adam are born with a "bent to sin" as we see in Romans 3.

But God supernaturally places opposition between our nature and sin - according to Gen 3 - so that we can have free will to choose the Gospel - even though our natures are depraved.

Christ did not have a sinful nature - but he was not born with the full strength of Adam who had access to the tree of life and was created in man's perfect unfallen state.

Adam was sinless with no sinful nature - yet he proved that even in this state man can be tempted and even fall into sin.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You have a HALF truth here! Verbal instruction is essential to faith but it is not the only essential for gospel faith to exist. What you fail to understand is that DIVINE REVELATION that effectually imparts UNDERSTANDING of what has been heard is the creative power that produces faith. .

Romans 12 - "To EACH ONE is given a measure of faith" not just to the saved.

God is the giver of that measure of faith - but it does not make each person into a believer. They simply have the ability to exercise that faith or to withhold it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 3 God says "behold I STAND at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL COME IN" -

This like 2Cor 5 is a very strong Arminian way to state the case.

2Cor 5 "we BEG You on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God".

Notice this is not of the form "WE BEG God to please please consider loving you and choosing to force you be a Christian"

This is not of the form "Behold I burst down the door of the FEW (the Matt 7 FEW) that I arbitrarily select and cause them to then wake up and see that we are already friends - the rest (the MANY of Matt &) I really don't care about that much, because I in fact do NOT so-love-the-World the way so many think that I do".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Where non-Cals differ from Calvinists, is that Calvinists believe a man must be supernaturally regenerated before he can be willing to hear and learn,

As it turns out - that is also "one of " the differences between Arminians and Calvinists.

Now, I am not saying the word of God and Holy Spirit do not work through the scriptures to draw and convict a man, they certainly do. The scriptures are clear that the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword and able to pierce to the very dividing asunder of soul and spirit.

But all man has to do is hear the word of God, and this alone enables him to believe in Jesus if he so chooses to do so.

In Romans 10 the "hearing" that is done is via the voice of nature if you look at what Paul is quoting. This is why in Romans 2 he has people with no access at all to the Word of God - being transformed and entering the New Covenant.

So "yes" the written Word is certainly a way that the Holy Spirit reaches people - but in John 16 He really does "Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just - those with a Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

As it turns out - that is also "one of " the differences between Arminians and Calvinists.

In Romans 10 the "hearing" that is done is via the voice of nature if you look at what Paul is quoting. This is why in Romans 2 he has people with no access at all to the Word of God - being transformed and entering the New Covenant.

So "yes" the written Word is certainly a way that the Holy Spirit reaches people - but in John 16 He really does "Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just - those with a Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

Pure baloney, Paul is speaking of preachers preaching from the word of God in Romans 10;

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Paul doesn't say one word about some "voice of nature" as you call it. He is speaking of preachers here, men who go and preach the gospel from the word of God.

You can't just make things up.

 

[BobRyan]

Preaching the Word is "included" in Romans 10 but if you read carefully find that Paul is indeed appealing to the "voice of nature" as the evangelist - as well (just as he did in Romans 1).

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
​

So now what is Paul's proof that they HAVE heard "the WORD"??

His quote of Psalms 19 is an appeal to nature as we see when we read it.

Ps 19

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth.

 

[Winman]

Preaching the Word is "included" in Romans 10 but if you read carefully find that Paul is indeed appealing to the "voice of nature" as the evangelist - as well (just as he did in Romans 1).

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
​

So now what is Paul's proof that they HAVE heard "the WORD"??

His quote of Psalms 19 is an appeal to nature as we see when we read it.

Ps 19

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth.

OK, I see what you are saying here.

This is similar to what Paul said in Romans 1, that "that which may be known of God is manifest unto them, for God hath shewed it unto them"

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

No man has the excuse to be an atheist. All men can see the creation around them and see there is an intelligence at work. Therefore all men know there is a God they are accountable to.

So what point are you trying to make here? That creation itself gives evidence that enables faith in God? I would agree with that.

But when it comes to Jesus, Paul asked how a man can believe in him of whom he has not heard? A man does not know the gospel by looking at the heavens.

 

[BobRyan]

Certainly the Gospel details are spelled out in the Bible - but not in nature.

However in Romans 2:13-16 (and at the end of that chapter) we find "Bible-aware" - "Bible-informed" Jews contrasted to uninformed Bible-unaware Gentiles who do "instinctively" the things of the Word of God showing the Works of the Law of God written on the heart. (A result of the work of the Holy Spirit according to the end of that chapter -- and the New Covenant).

 

[Winman]

Certainly the Gospel details are spelled out in the Bible - but not in nature.

However in Romans 2:13-16 (and at the end of that chapter) we find "Bible-aware" - "Bible-informed" Jews contrasted to uninformed Bible-unaware Gentiles who do "instinctively" the things of the Word of God showing the Works of the Law of God written on the heart. (A result of the work of the Holy Spirit according to the end of that chapter -- and the New Covenant).

What exactly are you trying to say?

 

[BobRyan]

I am saying that the Holy Spirit was working in the OT as Jesus said in John 3 - to cause the New Birth and also works today in the John 16 way to "convict the WORLD" just as Jesus "Draws all mankind" John 12:32 for He is the "Light that coming into the world - enlightens every man" John 1.

Jesus reaches all mankind with the benefits of the Gospel - even though He does not reach them with the "details of the Gospel".

"To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4.

"Whatever is not of faith -- is sin" Romans 14.

"To each one is given a measure of faith" - Romans 12:1-5.

God holds us accountable according to the level of truth that we have - not for what we do not have. Thus the Romans 2:13-16 example of someone with no Bible at all that is still reached by the Holy Spirit, is still following that which he does not fully understand.

However not all of those WITH Bible access choose the Gospel - how much more can it be said that not all of those withOUT access to the Bible will choose to follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Christ is the light that comes to them - be it ever so faintly and they too can choose based on what He gives them - to follow or not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Romans 12 - "To EACH ONE is given a measure of faith" not just to the saved.

God is the giver of that measure of faith - but it does not make each person into a believer. They simply have the ability to exercise that faith or to withhold it.

in Christ,

Bob

Try reading the context! It is not addressed to lost people but to the saved who can offer up their bodies as living sacrifices acceptable unto God. The measure of faith and measure of grace (vv. 3,7) are for already saved baptized church members (vv. 5-6).

 

[Winman]

I am saying that the Holy Spirit was working in the OT as Jesus said in John 3 - to cause the New Birth and also works today in the John 16 way to "convict the WORLD" just as Jesus "Draws all mankind" John 12:32 for He is the "Light that coming into the world - enlightens every man" John 1.

Jesus reaches all mankind with the benefits of the Gospel - even though He does not reach them with the "details of the Gospel".

"To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4.

"Whatever is not of faith -- is sin" Romans 14.

"To each one is given a measure of faith" - Romans 12:1-5.

God holds us accountable according to the level of truth that we have - not for what we do not have. Thus the Romans 2:13-16 example of someone with no Bible at all that is still reached by the Holy Spirit, is still following that which he does not fully understand.

However not all of those WITH Bible access choose the Gospel - how much more can it be said that not all of those withOUT access to the Bible will choose to follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Christ is the light that comes to them - be it ever so faintly and they too can choose based on what He gives them - to follow or not.

in Christ,

Bob

Interesting, though I do not think the scriptures you offered necessarily support your view.

It is an age old question of how those who have not heard the gospel are judged. I have wondered about this myself for years.

I do agree that men are judged according to what they know.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[The Biblicist]

And you cannot discern scripture. Matthew 16:17 does not say God made Peter believe in this verse, it says God REVEALED or made KNOWN that Jesus was the Son of God to Peter.

In context of what I was saying is that "revealed" by God is something that does not originate with "flesh and blood" and therefore is not something simply gained through men sharing the gospel but it is an inward work of God that is else where compared to a creative act of God (e.g. 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10a; etc.)

Now how did God do that? Through the scriptures. The scriptures told of a Prophet that would come, whom the people called the Messiah or Christ. The scriptures described him so that the Jews would know what to look for.

Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

All of the disciples knew the scriptures. They knew the promise of "the Prophet", the Christ, the Messiah. And when they saw the works of Jesus they knew he was this promised Christ.

Jesus was simply saying that the Father had revealed to Peter that he was the Christ. He was not saying he was supernaturally zapped to have this knowledge.

Your reasoning is irrational. Mt. 16:17 denies that the revelation of Christ came through HUMAN (flesh and blood) messengers. Paul asserts that his preaching of the gospel did not bring that revelation of knowledge but it was a creative act of God (2 Cor. 4:6) that brought that revelation. Sure the preachers and scriptures were INCLUDED but alone they are worthless in obtaining INTERNAL revelation to the heart and mind. God must OPEN the heart to receive what the external ears hear or it is worthless and comes in "word only" without the power and Spirit to PRODUCE the internal revelation.

The proper text was Galatians 1:15-16 rather than 1:16-17. Here the second birth is compared to the first birth as an act of God when "it pleased God."

 

[The Biblicist]

In context of what I was saying is that "revealed" by God is something that does not originate with "flesh and blood" and therefore is not something simply gained through men sharing the gospel but it is an inward work of God that is else where compared to a creative act of God (e.g. 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10a; etc.)




Your reasoning is irrational. Mt. 16:17 denies that the revelation of Christ came through HUMAN (flesh and blood) messengers. Paul asserts that his preaching of the gospel did not bring that revelation of knowledge but it was a creative act of God (2 Cor. 4:6) that brought that revelation. Sure the preachers and scriptures were INCLUDED but alone they are worthless in obtaining INTERNAL revelation to the heart and mind. God must OPEN the heart to receive what the external ears hear or it is worthless and comes in "word only" without the power and Spirit to PRODUCE the internal revelation.

The proper text was Galatians 1:15-16 rather than 1:16-17. Here the second birth is compared to the first birth as an act of God when "it pleased God."

Additionally, the internal revelation of gospel knowledge is directly likened to God creating light by effectually calling light out of darkness. This direct comparison is made by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 and I quote:

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Neither the written scripture or gospel preachers are capable of doing this. If they were capable of doing this then all we would have to do is have a lost person read the scripture or preach it to him and presto such light would be created within them.

You may not like it, and you may not want to admit it, but such revelatory knowledge is only performed by God as a supernatural act within a person which the word alone or a preacher cannot possibly do. Just because God performs this supernatural creative act in connection with the preaching of the Word does not provide justification to claim the WORD ALONE has such power because that is simply a lie. The Word of God only has such power when attended by the power of the Holy Spirit, which without, it is absolutely powerless to provide any kind of INTERNALIZED revelation. Paul explicit says it is God that performs that act (2 Cor. 4:6; Gal. 1:15-16) WHEN IT PLEASED HIM not when it please you or the preacher.

Finally, a CREATED act comparable to Genesis 1:2-3 is something no human being and no preacher can perform as the work of creation belongs exclusively and only to God. When God SPOKE in Genesis 1:3 it was by COMMAND not by asking if the darkened world was willing to become enlightened!