Born In Sin

[tyndale1946]

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Sin is a condition that causes the action and no mortal man is without it, it will ruin our lives if we let it, but make no mistake about it... We are ALL Sinners by nature... I said born in sin!... And I know this is so dear to the hearts of us on here but what about babies?... Some say they are innocent, are they?... What does scripture say?... Why do they need a Savior if they are the sinless innocent?

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Now I can hear on here, now wait a minute brother, how does a baby lie?... Those who have been parents listen and I will tell you... You bring your little one home from the hospital, you change them and you feed them and rock them to sleep and then you lay them down and not to soon after they wake up and start crying... So being and understanding parent you check them and find nothing wrong... They just wanted you to hold them... How dare you put them down... Your child just told a falsehood... A lie!... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

I believe they are innocent, but that the Psalmist is employing a figure of speech pointing to our nature (natural man). All indication is that Jesus had a normal childhood, otherwise he would have not have been considered ordinary by those around Him. He would have been not like us but alien (not the little green kind).

 

[percho]

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (includes babies - Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (includes babies)

 

[tyndale1946]

I believe they are innocent, but that the Psalmist is employing a figure of speech pointing to our nature (natural man). All indication is that Jesus had a normal childhood, otherwise he would have not have been considered ordinary by those around Him. He would have been not like us but alien (not the little green kind).

Well I know you think that but we are not born in the image of God but we are born in the image of Adam... Jesus is not in Adams image Jesus is in Gods... How could our sins be laid on him if he wasn't sinless?... How could God accept his sacrifice if he wasn't... Jon you need a class in original sin?... And how long have you been here?... Brother Glen

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Romans 5:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

He came into the world with our humanity embraced in divinity without our Total Depravity (Original Sin)

 

[JonC]

Well I know you think that but we are not born in the image of God but we are born in the image of Adam... Jesus is not in Adams image Jesus is in Gods... How could our sins be laid on him if he wasn't sinless?... How could God accept his sacrifice if he wasn't... Jon you need a class in original sin?... And how long have you been here?... Brother Glen

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Romans 5:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

He came into the world with our humanity embraced in divinity without our Total Depravity (Original Sin)

I disagree. I understand being in Adam's image as being in the flesh ("flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God"). Christ came "in the flesh", in the "likeness of man". This is vital (to my understanding of the Atonement, which would be probably a greater disagreement).

 

[KenH]

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Sin is a condition that causes the action and no mortal man is without it, it will ruin our lives if we let it, but make no mistake about it... We are ALL Sinners by nature... I said born in sin!... And I know this is so dear to the hearts of us on here but what about babies?... Some say they are innocent, are they?... What does scripture say?... Why do they need a Savior if they are the sinless innocent?

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Now I can hear on here, now wait a minute brother, how does a baby lie?... Those who have been parents listen and I will tell you... You bring your little one home from the hospital, you change them and you feed them and rock them to sleep and then you lay them down and not to soon after they wake up and start crying... So being and understanding parent you check them and find nothing wrong... They just wanted you to hold them... How dare you put them down... Your child just told a falsehood... A lie!... Brother Glen

Infants and young children who die young, if they are God's elect, will be saved the only way any human has ever and will ever be saved - by the imputation of their sins to Christ and the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness to them. How this all happens, I do not know. I don't have to know. God hasn't told us how we can know concerning those who can show no evidence that God has regenerated them and granted them faith and repentance:

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

 

[tyndale1946]

Infants and young children who die young, if they are God's elect, will be saved the only way any human has ever and will ever be saved - by the imputation of their sins to Christ and the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness to them. How this all happens, I do not know. I don't have to know. God hasn't told us how we can know concerning those who can show no evidence that God has regenerated them and granted them faith and repentance:

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Infants and young children who die young, if they are God's elect, will be saved the only way any human has ever and will ever be saved - by the imputation of their sins to Christ and the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness to them. How this all happens, I do not know. I don't have to know. God hasn't told us how we can know concerning those who can show no evidence that God has regenerated them and granted them faith and repentance:

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

AMEN!!!... Brother Glen

 

[JD731]

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Sin is a condition that causes the action and no mortal man is without it, it will ruin our lives if we let it, but make no mistake about it... We are ALL Sinners by nature... I said born in sin!... And I know this is so dear to the hearts of us on here but what about babies?... Some say they are innocent, are they?... What does scripture say?... Why do they need a Savior if they are the sinless innocent?

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Now I can hear on here, now wait a minute brother, how does a baby lie?... Those who have been parents listen and I will tell you... You bring your little one home from the hospital, you change them and you feed them and rock them to sleep and then you lay them down and not to soon after they wake up and start crying... So being and understanding parent you check them and find nothing wrong... They just wanted you to hold them... How dare you put them down... Your child just told a falsehood... A lie!... Brother Glen

It is not a sin to be born.

 

[JonC]

It is not a sin to be born.

I am think the distinction is not that it is a sin to be born but that we are born sinners.

 

[JD731]

I am think the distinction is not that it is a sin to be born but that we are born sinners.

How does the scriptures define sin?

 

[JonC]

How does the scriptures define sin?

Sin is the "fruit" of sinners (the "bad fruit"). That is why I did not say infants sin (I do not believe they do).

This is not a good argument, but it is worth noting. The Hebrews believed in an "age of accountability". This idea is present in Scripture but neither confirmed or rejected as correct (it would be a poor argument against infants sinning because it would be an argument out of silence...a fallacy. But I believe it is important to recognize nonetheless).

When I say born a sinner I mean born "flesh" with the desires of the flesh that would ultimately (for us) lead to sin. Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. This applied to infants as well. (I believe infants who die as infants are saved, not from the consequences of sin as physical death is a consequence but at Judgment because they have not sinned).

Some may argue that all have sinned, but I believe the context of the passage indicates sinful actions for which one is accountable (Scripture was not written for infants).

 

[tyndale1946]

Sin is the "fruit" of sinners (the "bad fruit"). That is why I did not say infants sin (I do not believe they do).

This is not a good argument, but it is worth noting. The Hebrews believed in an "age of accountability". This idea is present in Scripture but neither confirmed or rejected as correct (it would be a poor argument against infants sinning because it would be an argument out of silence...a fallacy. But I believe it is important to recognize nonetheless).

When I say born a sinner I mean born "flesh" with the desires of the flesh that would ultimately (for us) lead to sin. Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. This applied to infants as well. (I believe infants who die as infants are saved, not from the consequences of sin as physical death is a consequence but at Judgment because they have not sinned).

Some may argue that all have sinned, but I believe the context of the passage indicates sinful actions for which one is accountable (Scripture was not written for infants).

I was going to bring the age of accountability out but it is strange to me that Christians have adopted a tradition that is Jewish... ALL mankind are sinners because of Adam and as scripture goes

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I would like Jon to tell me what killed the baby?... If the baby did not have the original sin of Adam in him, the baby would not have died... Babies are not sinners by what they do by but what the are by nature... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

I was going to bring the age of accountability out but it is strange to me that Christians have adopted a tradition that is Jewish... ALL mankind are sinners because of Adam and as scripture goes

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I would like Jon to tell me what killed the baby?... If the baby did not have the original sin of Adam in him, the baby would not have died... Babies are not sinners by what they do by but what the are by nature... Brother Glen

I think, of you look carefully at my post, I have already answered.

I said infants ARE sinners by nature, NOT that they are not sinners. Dying before they sin does not change their nature.

My argument is that a baby crying for affection when the child is not hungry is not a lie. The baby is crying to communicate a need or desire, in this case affection.

 

[JD731]

I was going to bring the age of accountability out but it is strange to me that Christians have adopted a tradition that is Jewish... ALL mankind are sinners because of Adam and as scripture goes

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I would like Jon to tell me what killed the baby?... If the baby did not have the original sin of Adam in him, the baby would not have died... Babies are not sinners by what they do by but what the are by nature... Brother Glen

Jesus died but did not have sin in him.

Rom 6:12
Death passed upon all Adams offspring, not sin. Death is never more than separation. A newborn infant can be, and is, separated from God at birth but does not have sin. God created man to have the life of God, his Spirit, in him. The infant, born of Adam, does not have the Spirit in and though he physically lives because of the blood, he is spiritually dead. He does not die spiritually, he is dead spiritually by virtue of being in the image of his father, Adam. He has no intimate relationship with God in this state.

The life of the flesh is in the blood, we are told. However, a saved man, meaning a man who has the life of God in him through faith in Jesus Christ will still die physically. So, he has the life of the flesh, blood, and the life of God, his Spirit, and he still dies. This is the reason we have hope of a new body that is not from Adam. The life of God is certainly not from Adam, it is the gift of God and it is eternal. It is his Spirit, also called the Holy Spirit, the holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, and Life. When we receive this new body we will be glorified. Every member of the church of Jesus Christ will receive the new body individually and at the same time as every other member and the church being one with many members will be glorified together. We will be taken to Fathers house by the Son because now we will be able to never sin and also to occuopy heavenly places like Jesus does. Some of us nickname this the rapture of the church, or the biblical term, the gathering, or the translation, but it is the same whatever you decide to call it. It is when we will have a body like unto the body of Jesus. It is that glorious reunion to which the church of Jesus Christ is predestined. Here is just one of many references to it.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

So, at that time the saved man will have his soul, which is the spiritual side of man, and is given to him by God at conception, and in which is all his cognitive abilities and is who he is, and a glorified body, which is said in the NT to be a new body on which we await, and the Holy Spirit, who is the life of God, and both soul and Spirit will tabernacle for eternity in the new body and Adam will be erased from the equation.At that time blood will not b the life of the flesh, but the Spirit of God will be the life of the flesh. The scriptures say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The resurrected Lord Jesus said he had flesh and bone. He did not have flesh and blood.

Shifting gears, Paul is dealing with 3 different time frames in the first part of Romans when he is making his argument from chapter 5. It is from Adam to Moses, when there was no written law, but men still died even though sin is not imputed without law. Secondly, it was from Moses to Jesus, when the law convinced men as sinners, and finally from Jesus to Paul, writing in 58 AD, and of course that continues to this day. Everybody dies in all three groups. This is the point. This does not have infants under consideration. Surely every one on this forum is smart enough to know sin is not imputed to an infant if it is not imputed to a mature man. Sin reigned in mortal man as a sovereign according to what we learn here. (21 That as sin hath reigned unto death) Men must obey because they do not have any power to resist sin. When they willfully sin, meaning when they consciously and with knowledge and forethought do what they know is wrong, then sin is added to their account and they are in need of a savior. All men will sin and all men will be eternally condemned to exist apart from God. No one can sin without lust. See here;

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

All sins are acts of the body.

But this text in Romans 5 is in the context of the atonement. The text says all sin but all shall be made alive by receiving the gift. Adam is not greater in his putting all of humanity under death than Jesus Christ is at putting all men under life. The text says Adam was a figure of Jesus Christ. One ought to think about what that means. Now I am going to stop there so people can meditate on the truth I am setting forth here but there is much more that I have not told.

The bottom line for this comment is, infants cannot sin but they can die.

 

[tyndale1946]

Jesus died but did not have sin in him.

Rom 6:12
Death passed upon all Adams offspring, not sin. Death is never more than separation. A newborn infant can be, and is, separated from God at birth but does not have sin. God created man to have the life of God, his Spirit, in him. The infant, born of Adam, does not have the Spirit in and though he physically lives because of the blood, he is spiritually dead. He does not die spiritually, he is dead spiritually by virtue of being in the image of his father, Adam. He has no intimate relationship with God in this state.

The life of the flesh is in the blood, we are told. However, a saved man, meaning a man who has the life of God in him through faith in Jesus Christ will still die physically. So, he has the life of the flesh, blood, and the life of God, his Spirit, and he still dies. This is the reason we have hope of a new body that is not from Adam. The life of God is certainly not from Adam, it is the gift of God and it is eternal. It is his Spirit, also called the Holy Spirit, the holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, and Life. When we receive this new body we will be glorified. Every member of the church of Jesus Christ will receive the new body individually and at the same time as every other member and the church being one with many members will be glorified together. We will be taken to Fathers house by the Son because now we will be able to never sin and also to occuopy heavenly places like Jesus does. Some of us nickname this the rapture of the church, or the biblical term, the gathering, or the translation, but it is the same whatever you decide to call it. It is when we will have a body like unto the body of Jesus. It is that glorious reunion to which the church of Jesus Christ is predestined. Here is just one of many references to it.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

So, at that time the saved man will have his soul, which is the spiritual side of man, and is given to him by God at conception, and in which is all his cognitive abilities and is who he is, and a glorified body, which is said in the NT to be a new body on which we await, and the Holy Spirit, who is the life of God, and both soul and Spirit will tabernacle for eternity in the new body and Adam will be erased from the equation.At that time blood will not b the life of the flesh, but the Spirit of God will be the life of the flesh. The scriptures say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The resurrected Lord Jesus said he had flesh and bone. He did not have flesh and blood.

Shifting gears, Paul is dealing with 3 different time frames in the first part of Romans when he is making his argument from chapter 5. It is from Adam to Moses, when there was no written law, but men still died even though sin is not imputed without law. Secondly, it was from Moses to Jesus, when the law convinced men as sinners, and finally from Jesus to Paul, writing in 58 AD, and of course that continues to this day. Everybody dies in all three groups. This is the point. This does not have infants under consideration. Surely every one on this forum is smart enough to know sin is not imputed to an infant if it is not imputed to a mature man. Sin reigned in mortal man as a sovereign according to what we learn here. (21 That as sin hath reigned unto death) Men must obey because they do not have any power to resist sin. When they willfully sin, meaning when they consciously and with knowledge and forethought do what they know is wrong, then sin is added to their account and they are in need of a savior. All men will sin and all men will be eternally condemned to exist apart from God. No one can sin without lust. See here;

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

All sins are acts of the body.

But this text in Romans 5 is in the context of the atonement. The text says all sin but all shall be made alive by receiving the gift. Adam is not greater in his putting all of humanity under death than Jesus Christ is at putting all men under life. The text says Adam was a figure of Jesus Christ. One ought to think about what that means. Now I am going to stop there so people can meditate on the truth I am setting forth here but there is much more that I have not told.

The bottom line for this comment is, infants cannot sin but they can die.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

And you were saying?... Brother Glen

 

[JD731]

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

And you were saying?... Brother Glen

You jest by your implication, right?

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus died but did not have sin in him.

Jesus did not 'die'. When the scripture was fulfilled, when all was finished, He gave up the ghost, willingly. Neither the Jews nor the Romans forced it from Him. He could still be alive on earth today had He not willingly laid down His life for the sheep.

 

[kyredneck]

You jest by your implication, right?

What do you think he is implying?

 

[JD731]

What do you think he is implying?

It seems he is implying that Jesus had sin "in" him. The verse he quoted means that our Lord suffered for sin "in the flesh."

Jesus is the sinless sacrifice, or he could not have been the sacrifice. We are informed that God punished Jesus on that cross, not as his Son, but as sin, and all his wrath against sin was poured out on his body on the tree. He did not have to become a sinner for that to happen.

For God hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21

God is reconciled to sinners through this sacrifice and using logic and common sense, if God is satisfied with this payment for sin, then he is reconciled to sinners and is not imputing their sins to them now. If this sacrifice took away sin, and the scriptures says it did, then why wouldn't God receive anyone who would agree to be reconciled through Jesus Christ? Any other conclusion would be asinine. Reconciliation is between two parties and both must agree.

The scriptures do not say sinners will be reconciled to God, but that they "might" be reconciled to God.

Look; He 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He appeared, that means he could be seen. Why did he appear? The text says, to put away sin. How? By the sacrifice of himself.

Now, we have two opinions, mine and yours. I say he did put away sin. What do you say?

This makes the operative word in 2 Cor 5:21 as "might." God is reconciled to all the world. We are told this. Now, it is upon sinners to willingly be reconciled to God in the name of Jesus Christ and by faith in his blood sacrifice.

Any other gospel than this gospel is a false gospel.

The sinner who is not reconciled to God during this time of grace will die in their sins and be forever condemned as a sinner.

He 9:27 and as it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement.

This gospel is narrow.

 

[Alan Gross]

Jesus died but did not have sin in him.

Rom 6:12
Death passed upon all Adams offspring, not sin. Death is never more than separation. A newborn infant can be, and is, separated from God at birth but does not have sin. God created man to have the life of God, his Spirit, in him. The infant, born of Adam, does not have the Spirit in and though he physically lives because of the blood, he is spiritually dead. He does not die spiritually, he is dead spiritually by virtue of being in the image of his father, Adam. He has no intimate relationship with God in this state.

The life of the flesh is in the blood, we are told. However, a saved man, meaning a man who has the life of God in him through faith in Jesus Christ will still die physically. So, he has the life of the flesh, blood, and the life of God, his Spirit, and he still dies. This is the reason we have hope of a new body that is not from Adam. The life of God is certainly not from Adam, it is the gift of God and it is eternal. It is his Spirit, also called the Holy Spirit, the holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, and Life. When we receive this new body we will be glorified. Every member of the church of Jesus Christ will receive the new body individually and at the same time as every other member and the church being one with many members will be glorified together. We will be taken to Fathers house by the Son because now we will be able to never sin and also to occuopy heavenly places like Jesus does. Some of us nickname this the rapture of the church, or the biblical term, the gathering, or the translation, but it is the same whatever you decide to call it. It is when we will have a body like unto the body of Jesus. It is that glorious reunion to which the church of Jesus Christ is predestined. Here is just one of many references to it.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

So, at that time the saved man will have his soul, which is the spiritual side of man, and is given to him by God at conception, and in which is all his cognitive abilities and is who he is, and a glorified body, which is said in the NT to be a new body on which we await, and the Holy Spirit, who is the life of God, and both soul and Spirit will tabernacle for eternity in the new body and Adam will be erased from the equation.At that time blood will not b the life of the flesh, but the Spirit of God will be the life of the flesh. The scriptures say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The resurrected Lord Jesus said he had flesh and bone. He did not have flesh and blood.

Shifting gears, Paul is dealing with 3 different time frames in the first part of Romans when he is making his argument from chapter 5. It is from Adam to Moses, when there was no written law, but men still died even though sin is not imputed without law. Secondly, it was from Moses to Jesus, when the law convinced men as sinners, and finally from Jesus to Paul, writing in 58 AD, and of course that continues to this day. Everybody dies in all three groups. This is the point. This does not have infants under consideration. Surely every one on this forum is smart enough to know sin is not imputed to an infant if it is not imputed to a mature man. Sin reigned in mortal man as a sovereign according to what we learn here. (21 That as sin hath reigned unto death) Men must obey because they do not have any power to resist sin. When they willfully sin, meaning when they consciously and with knowledge and forethought do what they know is wrong, then sin is added to their account and they are in need of a savior. All men will sin and all men will be eternally condemned to exist apart from God. No one can sin without lust. See here;

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

All sins are acts of the body.

But this text in Romans 5 is in the context of the atonement. The text says all sin but all shall be made alive by receiving the gift. Adam is not greater in his putting all of humanity under death than Jesus Christ is at putting all men under life. The text says Adam was a figure of Jesus Christ. One ought to think about what that means. Now I am going to stop there so people can meditate on the truth I am setting forth here but there is much more that I have not told.

The bottom line for this comment is, infants cannot sin but they can die.

The bottom line for this comment is, infants cannot sin but they can die.

"You must be born again."