Born In Sin

[JonC]

Being made flesh and blood is not being made sin. Flesh and blood isn't sin. And do i intend church has nothing to do with this thread born in sin. Please keep your questions related to this topic. Now flesh will inherit the kingdom, but it wont be natural flesh, it will be spiritual. Christ has flesh now doesnt He ? Lk 24:39

.
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So explain yourself, how was Christ in that context literally made sin. Was He made a sinner in your opinion ? Yes or no

Made a sinner? No. He knew no sin. He was made sin for us (not made to commit sin).

No, Christ does not have flesh and blood as we do now. He has ascended and now has a body as we will have (what it is like, we do not know).

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1 Corinthians 15:38–41 But God gives to it a body just as he wishes, and to each one of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same, but there is one flesh of human beings, and another flesh of animals, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish, 40 and heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly bodies is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly bodies is of another kind. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit. So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. For we live by believing and not by seeing. Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.

 

[Brightfame52]

Because we represent our fathers. While Christ most often used the title "Son of man" He is also the Son of God.

We did not exist prior to our conception. He did.

More importantly is the relationship between father and son. Christ is a descendent of Adam (completely man) but He is also the Son of God (completely God).

Okay Christ was a Man, but He wasnt born like the rest of Adams seed. As a Man why wasnt He born of a human man father, all other men were. Im not talking about Jesus as the Son of God, but as He is a Man. You still havent explained why the Man was born without a human father.

 

[Brightfame52]

joh c

Made a sinner? No. He knew no sin. He was made sin for us (not made to commit sin).

Agreed, so how was He made sin ? Explain that.

 

[Brightfame52]

jonc

No, Christ does not have flesh and blood as we do now. He has ascended and now has a body as we will have (what it is like, we do not know).

I never stated He had flesh and blood, but flesh and bones Read the text I provided Lk 24:39


Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[Brightfame52]

Made a sinner? No. He knew no sin. He was made sin for us (not made to commit sin).

No, Christ does not have flesh and blood as we do now. He has ascended and now has a body as we will have (what it is like, we do not know).

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1 Corinthians 15:38–41 But God gives to it a body just as he wishes, and to each one of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same, but there is one flesh of human beings, and another flesh of animals, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish, 40 and heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly bodies is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly bodies is of another kind. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit. So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. For we live by believing and not by seeing. Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.

Okay look, was Christ made like unto men in the flesh except for sin ? Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Didnt He come in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet not sinful flesh ? Rom 8:2-3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[JonC]

Okay Christ was a Man, but He wasnt born like the rest of Adams seed. As a Man why wasnt He born of a human man father, all other men were. Im not talking about Jesus as the Son of God, but as He is a Man. You still havent explained why the Man was born without a human father.

No, Christ was born as every man is born. The idea that Christ was not human, was not "made like us in every way", is a reliance on human wisdom rather than God's Word.

Scripture tells us why Christ was born of a virgin:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’

Now, your question may be regarding the significance of a virgin birth. The answer is, of course, as a sign (as Scripture states). A virgin birth is a sign acriss religions signifying that a messiah is given from God or the gods.

The difference, of course, is that there was only one real virgin birth (Christ).

Why not simply accept the reason Scripture gives? That is the real question here.

 

[JonC]

Okay look, was Christ made like unto men in the flesh except for sin ? Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Didnt He come in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet not sinful flesh ? Rom 8:2-3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

No.

Romans 8:1–4 Consequently, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what was impossible for the law, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the law would be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[AustinC]

No.

Romans 8:1–4 Consequently, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what was impossible for the law, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the law would be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Are infants "in Christ Jesus?"

According to Ephesians 2:4-5 salvation is by grace alone, not by works or lack of sinful choice.

 

[tyndale1946]

All, including Jesus (He was made sin for us, the Word became flesh).

Disagree he did not become us when the Word became flesh... Are you saying that he was born with our sin nature?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Jesus came into our world with sinless flesh, he was not born like David... His Father was God, not an offspring of Adam multiplied

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

No Jon he became US, on the cross, when our sins were laid on him... You and I crossed swords before on this one scripture before and I backed away and let you ramble on and you said that his Father alone always loved his Son but when our sins were laid on him, Jesus Christ represented US... If Jesus Christ was not our substitute, then there is no Salvation for any... In case any who look at this want to know where Jon and I crossed swords, here is the scripture

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Now Jon made this comment that The Father loved his Son Eternally and he could never forsake his Son... Then explain to me why Jesus made that comment and why it is in scripture if its not true?... That is right he never did but when our sins were laid on him as scripture states, he is no longer his Son Jesus Christ he is our substitute and since he took our sins to himself, he is our sacrifice... And the wrath of God was delivered upon his Son, as our substitute, who stood where we could never stand and do what we could never do, when he became US!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And one more thing Jon, then I'm done... TOUCHE!!!... Brother Glen

 

[37818]

Disagree he did not become us when the Word became flesh... Are you saying that he was born with our sin nature?

That is an interesting issue. I hold He was conceived fully human from Adam through His virgin mother Mary. But He was conceived sinless, bring that very thing which causes us to be conceived with a sin nature was always part of His divine nature, Him being the Creator. Re: Genesis 3:22. Tradition fails to teach this. John 1:3.

 

[JonC]

Are infants "in Christ Jesus?"

According to Ephesians 2:4-5 salvation is by grace alone, not by works or lack of sinful choice.

What work do infants do?

 

[JonC]

Disagree he did not become us when the Word became flesh... Are you saying that he was born with our sin nature?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Jesus came into our world with sinless flesh, he was not born like David... His Father was God, not an offspring of Adam multiplied

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

No Jon he became US, on the cross, when our sins were laid on him... You and I crossed swords before on this one scripture before and I backed away and let you ramble on and you said that his Father alone always loved his Son but when our sins were laid on him, Jesus Christ represented US... If Jesus Christ was not our substitute, then there is no Salvation for any... In case any who look at this want to know where Jon and I crossed swords, here is the scripture

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Now Jon made this comment that The Father loved his Son Eternally and he could never forsake his Son... Then explain to me why Jesus made that comment and why it is in scripture if its not true?... That is right he never did but when our sins were laid on him as scripture states, he is no longer his Son Jesus Christ he is our substitute and since he took our sins to himself, he is our sacrifice... And the wrath of God was delivered upon his Son, as our substitute, who stood where we could never stand and do what we could never do, when he became US!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

And one more thing Jon, then I'm done... TOUCHE!!!... Brother Glen

En garde!

No, it was necessary that Christ be made like is in all respects.

Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he was obligated to be made like his brothers in all respects, in order that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things relating to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

But you are right that He is our Representative (on that we have always agreed).

God does not make us sinners. We are made men, with human nature's. We choose sin. Christ was tempted in all points as are we, but He did not sin. He remained obedient.

If Christ did not die for our sins, as our representative, then there is no salvation. Again, you are right.

BUT if Christ was not "made like his brothers in all respects" then there is no representation (and no salvation.

 

[AustinC]

What work do infants do?

Are infants in Christ at conception, but fall out of Christ later when they consciously choose to sin?

You have yet to answer my question?

As to your question, we are condemned by the curse, therefore a work is not necessary for us to be in need of saving grace.

Are infants in Christ?

 

[JonC]

Are infants in Christ at conception, but fall out of Christ later when they consciously choose to sin?

You have yet to answer my question?

As to your question, we are condemned by the curse, therefore a work is not necessary for us to be in need of saving grace.

Are infants in Christ?

Sorry, I meant to. No. Infants are human beings. They also required a Savior and face the wages of sin.

 

[AustinC]

Sorry, I meant to. No. Infants are human beings. They also required a Savior and face the wages of sin.

So they are never in Christ from conception, onward, until Christ chooses to redeem them at some point in their lives?

 

[JonC]

So they are never in Christ from conception, onward, until Christ chooses to redeem them at some point in their lives?

On the Cross God was reconciling man to Himself. Christ died once, for all. Man is reconciled to God through Christ. The work of the cros

What is left is for men to be reconciled to God.

Your question, biblically, should be "for what sins are aborted children damned?". My answer is "none".

 

[Brightfame52]

jonc

No, Christ was born as every man is born.

So every man is born of a virgin ? Without a human father ?

 

[Brightfame52]

No.

Romans 8:1–4 Consequently, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what was impossible for the law, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the law would be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

You say no, yet scripture says that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, not in sinful flesh. Rom 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

likeness homoíōma:

hat which has been made after the likeness of something

1. a figure, image, likeness, representation
   
   
2. likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity
   

 

[JonC]

You say no, yet scripture says that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, not in sinful flesh. Rom 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

likeness homoíōma:

hat which has been made after the likeness of something

1. a figure, image, likeness, representation
   
   
2. likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

The issue is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Your objection was to the passage I provided, not to my own ideas.

The Bible is not a general reference book where you get to pick our what you want and ignore what you dislike.

Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was made like us in all respects. You leave out that
homoíōma also means "form" (He came in the form of sinful flesh).

Christ become a son of Adam (a son of man) to redeem man.

A common Christian belief (not Scripture but an orthodox belief you reject) is that Christ is not more than man in His humanity, not less than God in His divinity. What you are wrestling with is the doctrine of the trinity. You cannot accept that Christ made like his brothers in all respects, so you ignore the passage and choose another that is less specific to your objection.

 

[AustinC]

On the Cross God was reconciling man to Himself. Christ died once, for all. Man is reconciled to God through Christ. The work of the cros

What is left is for men to be reconciled to God.

Your question, biblically, should be "for what sins are aborted children damned?". My answer is "none".

You avoided and ran around the question.
You state that, from conception, children are not in Christ.
Thus, they are by nature apart from Christ and in need of God's gracious redemption so that they are found in Christ.
You make salvation to be by works when you claim that infants have not sinned and are therefore righteous. This is the equivalent of a corrupted computer program that you think isn't corrupt until the computer is turned on, even though the code was corrupt from the beginning of the creation of that computer.

Jon, God must graciously choose to redeem infants from conception onward as they are corrupted from conception onward. They don't become corrupt only after they show evidence of their corruption as you are implying