Jerry Shugart
New Member
I have shown how you misrepresented me on every single point. It is you who needs to repent, not us.
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Born in Sins part2
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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To Nicodemus, who was a ruler of the Jews, a member of the Sanhedrin, a Rabbi, a teacher, and knew the Law well, Jesus said:
You must be born again.
Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
--And he said the same thing three times. Never did he say anything about DOING anything. Nothing about works. You must be born again.
To the rich young ruler, you never finished the story. You stopped in the middle of a conversation. This is what he said he must DO:
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Mark 10:21)
--Are you willing to do that?
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
--What did Jesus say to the multitudes? What was the requirement here?
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:25-27)
--Have you done this?
In the same chapter, a few verses later Jesus says:
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33)
--Have you forsaken all?
Another example: A volunteer came,
And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
What did Jesus say:
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. (Luke 9:61-62)
--Is this the requirement for heaven?
Now look back. He has said different things to different people in different circumstances.
In John 4, to the woman at the well, what did he tell her to do?
"Go call thy husband"
--Is that the way to salvation?
In each case he deals with people's needs as they are, as he sees them. He is God. He knew what the woman's needs were. Therefore he told her to call her husband. He knew that she was adulterous and had more than one husband. He was pointing out her sin without saying it. She couldn't call her husband.
And the rich young ruler couldn't keep the law.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
We are not talking about Nicodemus. I will ask you again:
Suppose a person heard the following conversation between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
Then suppose that person came over to the Lord Jesus and asked Him, "So if a person keeps the law then they will obtain eternal life?"
After all, that would be the logical inference anyone would draw from hearing that exchange between the two men.
In your opinion how would the Lord Jesus answer that question.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: When one denies the Deity of Jesus Christ we say such a one is outside of the faith. What do we call sheer ignorance, and how should we judge a self proclaimed 'Biblical expert' obviously devoid of the nature of Christ involving His Deity?.......or so it would appear from the illogical and absurd tactics he employs against others on this list.
Jesus gave that answer in another portion of Scripture:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28-29)
The only "law" (work) that you can do is to believe on him whom He hath sent.
Christ made that clear, along with Scriptures such as John 14:6: 5:24; 3:16-18, 36, etc.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Why do you continue to refuse to answer my question. I will repeat what I said in the hope that you will finally answer:
Suppose a person heard the following conversation between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus:
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).
Then suppose that person came over to the Lord Jesus and asked Him, "So if a person keeps the law then they will obtain eternal life?"
After all, that would be the logical inference anyone would draw from hearing that exchange between the two men.
In your opinion how would the Lord Jesus answer that question.
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Why do you want me to give an answer other than what the Lord Jesus Christ has already given? I have given you his answer, which is mine since I agree with Christ. Do you want me to lie?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Christ does not lie, neither does He tell falsehoods to set forth truth.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
I want you to answer the question that is in regard to the verses we have been discussing previously. I asked for your opinion and you have never before been shy in expressing your opinion before. Why now?
Then suppose that person came over to the Lord Jesus and asked Him, "So if a person keeps the law then they will obtain eternal life?"
In your opinion what would the Lord Jesus say in answer?
Jerry Shugart
New Member
I agree with you completely!
That is why I am interested in hearing what DHK says in regard to my inquiry.
Christ does not lie. But you don't want to hear Christ's words.
You want to hear my words. Why? I gave you the exact words of Christ. He doesn't lie. You want me to lie, because I gave you the words of Christ and told you I agree with Christ. You want me to say something different other than the words of Christ. This is foolishness.
1. They come into the world born of the Spirit
Ok, You have confirmed my first point - thanks
2. Unable to sin throughout childhood (period of incapability to discern moral decisions)
So you are now admitting that infants can LIE from the womb?
Are you telling us that INFANTS are capable of making and understanding MORAL DECISIONS and thus WILLFULLY choosing to sin?????? Are you saying that there is no period of time that INFANTS and CHILDREN are incapable of discerning right from wrong and willfully choosing evil????
3. Potentially will never sin thus never need Jesus Christ
I never denied you admitted all men sin. However, You believe that all men POTENTIALLY can keep the law and obtain eternal life. That is what you are arguing right now in this thread are you not????? If all men can POTENTIALLY keep the law then they can POTENTIALLY not sin because there is no other way to POTENTIALLY keep the law to obtain eternal life! Come on Jerry everyone on this forum knows that is exactly what you have been defending! Either a person can or cannot POTENTIALLY obtain eternal life by keeping the law! If they can, then they can POTENTIALLY never sin as that is the ONLY way to keep the Law!
4. Potentially each human is a Jesus Christ
Never claimed YOU SAID IT! What you have said is that every single human being is identical to Jesus Christ as far as being a man (Heb. 2:17) and you say it again in this very response. Hence, every single human being comes into this world just as Jesus came into this world - sinless. Hence, every single human being comes into this world with the same spiritual nature - born of the spirit, spiritually alive, in the righteous holy image of God. Hence, every single human being comes into the world with no sin nature. Hence, every single human being comes into the world and lives a period of time in childhood incapable of comprehending and discerning moral right and wrong. Hence, every single human being POTENTIALLY can obtain eteral life by keeping the law and thus POTENTIALLY be as sinless as Jesus Christ all through life - POTENTIALLY!
Therefore, in regard to the humanity of Jesus Christ every single human being according to your theology has the POTENTIAL to be just like Jesus Christ!
You interpretation of this passage PROVES every proposition I have made above concerning the POTENTIAL of your theology is correct and the only way you can deny any point is to twist my words and YOU KNOW IT!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
In response to Biblicist's four points against Jerry, I offer the following:
1. I would say that when a child is born, they are born of God, with built in intuitive ability to grow in the knowledge and favor of truth, just as Christ grew. Cettainly they are not 'born of the Spirit' in any salvic manner, for they have at that point in time no need for salvation forthey are not yet sinners. Only 'in a sense' are they born of the Spirit at birth.
2. No child can sin until they reach such an age commonly known as the age of accountability where the child knows the intrinsic value of the commands apart from the manner it initially as a young child knew right from wrong, by mere punishments or rewards.
3. No one would need a Savior if in fact there was no sin in their lives. If it is not theoretically possible for men to live apart from disobedience, Gods demands to obey the law would be completely ludicrous and grievous. I believe the 'possibility exists some in the OT did in fact fulfill the law and walk perfect before God in all the light and strength given to them. Enoch and Elijah are two of those possibilities in my own mind. I know that such is not nor will not be the case in our dispensation for Christ clearly taught, all in our dispensation are in need of repentance and salvation, without which no man shall see the Lord. Certainly Christ, as a man, also fulfilled the law perfectly proving once and for all that obedience to Gods law could be fulfilled by man if they would. He proved the reasonableness of Gods commands and Gods justice in demanding the law to be fulfilled as he ask for it to be. If it is impossible to be done by man, it is beyond wickedness to demand, by way of eternal death and torment, that man fulfill it. God requires no impossibilities of man. he is Just and his commandments are not grievous.
IF, and I repeat IF any man at the judgment from the OT is shown to have fulfilled the law perfectly in relationship to the light and knowledge they had while they lived, it would be absurd to believe that such would make them Deity by any stretch of the imagination. They simply would have been nothing other than shining examples of obedient men or women made in God's image.
4. " Potentially" any man that would suggest that obedience to the law makes one another a "Jesus Christ" as Biblicist clearly suggests, is on the same level as one that denies the Deity of Jesus Christ. You are showing the same ignorance of what His nature consisted of in like manner as would anyone that simply denies His Deity even if by sheer ignorance of it. Again, "potentially" speaking.
1. I would say that when a child is born, they are born of God, with built in intuitive ability to grow in the knowledge and favor of truth, just as Christ grew. Cettainly they are not 'born of the Spirit' in any salvic manner, for they have at that point in time no need for salvation forthey are not yet sinners. Only 'in a sense' are they born of the Spirit at birth.
2. No child can sin until they reach such an age commonly known as the age of accountability where the child knows the intrinsic value of the commands apart from the manner it initially as a young child knew right from wrong, by mere punishments or rewards.
3. No one would need a Savior if in fact there was no sin in their lives. If it is not theoretically possible for men to live apart from disobedience, Gods demands to obey the law would be completely ludicrous and grievous. I believe the 'possibility exists some in the OT did in fact fulfill the law and walk perfect before God in all the light and strength given to them. Enoch and Elijah are two of those possibilities in my own mind. I know that such is not nor will not be the case in our dispensation for Christ clearly taught, all in our dispensation are in need of repentance and salvation, without which no man shall see the Lord. Certainly Christ, as a man, also fulfilled the law perfectly proving once and for all that obedience to Gods law could be fulfilled by man if they would. He proved the reasonableness of Gods commands and Gods justice in demanding the law to be fulfilled as he ask for it to be. If it is impossible to be done by man, it is beyond wickedness to demand, by way of eternal death and torment, that man fulfill it. God requires no impossibilities of man. he is Just and his commandments are not grievous.
IF, and I repeat IF any man at the judgment from the OT is shown to have fulfilled the law perfectly in relationship to the light and knowledge they had while they lived, it would be absurd to believe that such would make them Deity by any stretch of the imagination. They simply would have been nothing other than shining examples of obedient men or women made in God's image.
4. " Potentially" any man that would suggest that obedience to the law makes one another a "Jesus Christ" as Biblicist clearly suggests, is on the same level as one that denies the Deity of Jesus Christ. You are showing the same ignorance of what His nature consisted of in like manner as would anyone that simply denies His Deity even if by sheer ignorance of it. Again, "potentially" speaking.
Then how do you harmonize this with Jerry's demand that "re-generation" means that the child was born with the very same spiritual condition that the sinner obtains by second birth????? The second birth or new birth is being created in true holiness and righteousness or restoration of the MORAL image of God according to Ephesians 4:24 and Col. 3:10 and Titus 3:5.
Exactly my point and the proposition I stated.
Why do you claim then that THEORETICALLY all men can obtain eternal life by justification under law according to good works then if that was not THEORETICALLY possible?????? That very THEORETICAL concept demands SINLESS perfection as that is what the law requires to be justified.
Therefore if it is THEORETICALLY possible to obtain eternal life by law keeping it is THEORETICALLY possible to keep the law and thus be THEORETICALLY sinless and thus THEORETICALLY without need of Christ or salvation and thus THEORETICALLY equal to Christ in regard to human moral righteousness!
You prove my first three propositions by this claim! You prove that they THEORETICALLY had to be born sinless, live sinless and thus obtain eternal life due to sinlessness thus EQUAL to Christ as a sinless human being! Thus having no need of Christ or salvation.
So the human condition has changed from that dispensation to this dispensation? They needed no gospel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23) no Savior no salvation???????
So the Scriptures that Paul quotes from the Psalms to prove the sinfulnes of all men in this dispensation have not the same relevance when David said them??????
Did Jesus say "no man" can come to the Father before or after this dispensation began (Jn. 14:6)?????
I never claimed they would be equal to Christ's diety but rather to his humanity as a sinless man.
My whole argument and propositions are based upon your interpretation of Hebrews 2:17 where the HUMANITY of Christ is the issue not his diety.
It is true that all that are born are not born apart from the power of God, however...
What is in view is not life in general, all men that walked, talked, and breathed across the pages of recorded scripture had life. But not all had life.
What is done here is to make all that are born equal to Christ. Only Christ was tempted in all points...without sin. Only Christ was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners. He stands alone as the only One that did not sin. And what is differnet? He had no earthly father.
I would suggest that you hit the nail on the head, though I fear that the nail is being driven into the wrong building.
And that is the point that is consistently being made, but overlooked. Salvific spiritual birth is that which Christ came to give man.
Man is born physically, and there is no salvific sense in that birth, and though God s merciful to those who cannot understand and therefore be held accountable does not negate the fact that man will sin, the law will not take away those sins, and man will remain in the condition of condemnation which passed upon all men through Adam.
Again, you say the truth when you say:
When a child naturally tells his parents "no," and all children do, are you then excusing their disobedience?
This is a determined act by the child. They seek to do "that which is right in their own eyes," though they do not understand that mom and dad know better than they, and it is (usually) for their own good.
Scripture presents this same concept in man. Until the law, man did not understand his sin.
Until the knowledge was made available, man did not understand God's revealed will.
And the scripture tells us that God "winked at" their ignorance. There is no condoning or forgiveness, and there certainly is no atonement.
It is no different with children. We do not condone or forgive a child when they rebel, despite the fact that they do not understand, we elevate our efforts...to teach them that which is right, and to lead them, hopefully, to obedience to our expressed "will."
And since it is stated throughout scripture that man needs a Savior, what does that tell you.
Honestly, how sin can be thought to be generated by man, I don't know.
I agree with your statement, by the way. The problem is, man will inevitably sin. Thus, man will inevitably need a Savior. This is why scripture consistently teaches about salvation.
Isaiah 43:11
King James Version (KJV)
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
"For those that do not need a savior" could not be tacked on to this statement of God.
Just not so. This is syllogistic at the least.
When God said...
Exodus 20:12
King James Version (KJV)
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
...He was not promising eternal life, but dealt with the temporal existence of man. Do not covet...this, as well as every other commandment, dealt with man's existence...here.
It safeguarded the obedient, as well as his neighbor.
If you give your statement some thought, you will see the serious error of such a statement.
If we change the statement to say:
"If it were possible for man to live in complete obedience, Gods demands to obey the law would be completely ludicrous and grievous."
And few would argue that complete obedience is possible, or that an offense in one place does not make man guilty of the whole law. This is a condition that is impossible for man to meet.
I am about out of time, but if the eternality of damnation is a topic of interest, start or pull up a thread.
Just as some mistake the temporal nature of James' teaching concerning justification, that it is speaking of man's relationship to each other, even so the Old Testament is taken to give man a righteousness that God Himself denies.
It is clear that concerning salvation, completion is in Christ...alone. The righteousnesss of Christ is imputed to man, thus making it possible that man might be just, and that he can be restored to the relationship God initially intended for man in Adam.
Adam was indeed perfect. And he sinned.
And again, to make men equal to Christ in ability to fulfill the law demeans Christ. It takes away the very reason for which Christ came.
Continued...
There will be no man that stands before the Great White Throne who will have fulfilled the law perfectly, for the only One to have done that will sit upon the throne.
That is, God.
Revelation 20:12
King James Version (KJV)
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Notice the "dead" stand before God. Why are they dead, though they live? Because they are lost.
They were dead in life, dead after they died physically, and dead after they were resurrected unto judgment. And we know they have been resurrected at this point because we are told:
Revelation 20
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This judgment does not determine whether they live or die, it determines the severity of their punishment...according to their works.
Believers' works are also judged, but again, it determines reward, or lack thereof...not their eternal condition. For Christ gives eternal life to those that believe, and the Great White Throne does not contradict that. Old Testament saints "believed in Christ" according to faith and the limited revelation they had been given.
Hebrews 11
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Not until the Cross of Christ could the Old Testament saints be made complete. I understand that this is something that is a personal view, so unless one wishes to discuss it, I will not go into too much detail.
Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jesus is the originator and perfecter, or completer of our faith. He became that through His death.
Not obedience to the law, but perfect, flawless obedience. One claims something that is not possible and applies that to themselves. Only Christ accomplished this, and it is ignorance for one to think they can replicate His sinlessness.
And, if a man could "potentially" be flawlessly obedient, what exactly would be gained? Would that mean, as suggested above, that a Savior would no longer be necessary?
That is the implication, and that is what your antagonist is pointing out.
But that man cannot perfectly be obedient to the law is evident, for the law itself cannot take away sin.
See the paradox created for the would-be righteous man?
Our only hope is that the righteousness of Christ be seen in us, rather than even our greatest righteousnesses. Which are filthy rags when viewed by a Holy God, and in the words of Paul...dung.
Okay, have to get going...
God bless.
Tell me why you are not interested in the words of Jesus? You ought to be ashamed.
He was asked this very question - Mt. 19:17 - what is possible for a man to do to obtain eternal life and here is his answer:
"There IS none good but ONE and that is God" - Mt. 19:18
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