Born of God

[Marcia]

No Mark. It does not say "for the birth of the Spirit was even as it is now". "Even as it is now" is speaking of those born after the Spirit being persecuted by those born after the flesh.

What we need to find understanding for is the phrase "born after the Spirit". I am not convinced (yet) that it is declaring "born of God" (regeneration).

I think GE explained it earlier. It means "born according to the Spirit." It's helpful sometimes to look at various versions.

NASB: "according to the Spirit"

NIV: At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now

NKJV: "according to the Spirit"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Just quickly - I'll be back later, God willing ....

About being 'converted': You convert a car, you change it! You give your beetle a Roll's engine; you converted it; changed it beyond recognition INSIDE; outside is still the same!

I always say: It's NOT 'Convert and be born again; it is be born againg then be converted. Justified by faith then sanctified by grace; but 'justified by faith' already had been grace 100%!!

That Volksagen could not do a thing for itself. Its owner first had to give it another --- totally strange --- engine; then watch it perform! Like a truly 'converted' miracle.

 

[Marcia]

Gal 4.29 brings up an interesting point: Apparently some people in the OT were "born according to the Spirit" although this may indicate not all were. We know Saul had God's Spirit taken away, for example. So it could be that some people in the OT were born of the Spirit and indwelt while others received the Spirit but also had the Spirit taken away.

I always assumed no one in the OT was "born of the Spirit" but Gal 4.29 is challenging that view.

Another supporting scripture could be John 3 when Jesus tells Nicodemus he must be "born again." Jesus indicted that Nicodemus, as a Jewish teacher, should have understood this:

9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

Jesus uses 3 similar phrases: "born again," "born of water and the Spirit," and "born of the Spirit." Many bibles have Ez. 36:25-27 as a reference for being born "of water and of Spirit." But whether Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand this because it was a prophecy in the OT that he was supposed to understand was being fulfilled now, or because this happened in the OT, I'm not sure.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think yours has been a very fine post, Marcia!

 

[Marcia]

I think yours has been a very fine post, Marcia!

Thanks, GE! :wavey:

 

[steaver]

I always say: It's NOT 'Convert and be born again; it is be born again then be converted.

It appears to me from the scriptures that being "born again" and "converted" is one in the same thing.

Jesus said, Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus put it this way to Nicodemus, Jhn 3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now I do not see faith and born again as one in the same prior to the glorification of Jesus. Jesus said Peter had faith but needed conversion. Conversion and born again is one in the same according to the scripture and comes after Jesus' glorification.

 

[steaver]

I shall have to copy paste and enlarge the print of your post on MSW in order to work on it. If you don't mind, use larger letters, please.

GE, you could copy and paste a person's post on the reply page also and change the font size. You can then edit and delete also to respond to the areas of interest. Just a thought.

 

[steaver]

9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

Jesus uses 3 similar phrases: "born again," "born of water and the Spirit," and "born of the Spirit." Many bibles have Ez. 36:25-27 as a reference for being born "of water and of Spirit." But whether Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand this because it was a prophecy in the OT that he was supposed to understand was being fulfilled now, or because this happened in the OT, I'm not sure.

Pharisees were a conceited bunch who believed they knew it all. Jesus was taking a poke at Nicodemus' pride in his position. Nic never before heard the term "born again", but Nic should have known about the "new heart" God had promised to give those who trusted in Him. (Ez 11, 18, 36)

 

[mark1]

No Mark. It does not say "for the birth of the Spirit was even as it is now". "Even as it is now" is speaking of those born after the Spirit being persecuted by those born after the flesh.

What we need to find understanding for is the phrase "born after the Spirit". I am not convinced (yet) that it is declaring "born of God" (regeneration).

1Jo 3:13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

Gal 4
29: But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

It quoted a complete phase, and said "even so it is today".

You want to cherry pick, but even doing that, you have trouble with "harmony" you speak about.

So, it says born, instead of "birth", what is the difference? If the born after the Spirit was different then, I am sure the writer would of said so.

Main Entry:
1birth
1 a: the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent b: the act or process of bringing forth young from the womb
2: a state resulting from being born especially at a particular time or place <a Southerner by birth>

Main Entry:
born
1 a: brought forth by or as if by birth b:native —usually used in combination <American-born> c: deriving or resulting from —usually used in combination <poverty-born crime>

2 a: having from birth specified qualities <a born leader> b: being in specified circumstances from birth <nobly born> <born to wealth>3: destined from or as if from birth <born to succeed>

 

[steaver]

Gal 4
29: But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

I quoted a complete phase, and said "even so it is today".

You want to cherry pick, but even doing that, you have trouble with "harmony" you speak about.

So, it says born, instead of "birth", what is the difference? If the born after the Spirit was different then, I am sure the writer would of said so.

"Birth' or "born" was not my dispute. My dispute was you picking out one part, misquoting it, and declaring the statement "even as it is now" was refering to your cherry pick.

Here is what you said

The last part of Gal 4:29 puts that to rest, for his birth of the Spirit was even as it is now.
And of course we were not filled with the Holy Ghost before our fleshly birth.

You picked one part of the verse which says "born after the Spirit", changed it to "born of the Spirit", and then declared "even as it is now" is speaking of this "born of the Spirit.

When in fact the saying "even as it is now" is refering to the "persecution". Those born after the flesh persecuting those born after the Spirit.

What we need to address is "Born after the Spirit" verses "Born of the Spirit". Are they one in the same thing? I don't believe they are.

 

[mark1]

"Birth' or "born" was not my dispute. My dispute was you picking out one part, misquoting it, and declaring the statement "even as it is now" was refering to your cherry pick.

Here is what you said



You picked one part of the verse which says "born after the Spirit", changed it to "born of the Spirit", and then declared "even as it is now" is speaking of this "born of the Spirit.

When in fact the saying "even as it is now" is refering to the "persecution". Those born after the flesh persecuting those born after the Spirit.

What we need to address is "Born after the Spirit" verses "Born of the Spirit". Are they one in the same thing? I don't believe they are.

You miss my whole point of scripture saying "born after the Spirit" also in those days.
What is it?

 

[steaver]

You miss my whole point of scripture saying "born after the Spirit" also in those days.
What is it?

Well, this was the OP starter and this is what I said in the OP...

Is being born of the Spirit the same as being born after the Spirit?

My preliminary findings are suggesting that this phrase "born after the Spirit" is speaking of the promise made by God to give Sarah a child which all nations shall be blessed through. One child was through the flesh, after man's plan, and the other was through a promise, after God's plan.

Then GE shed some light on this with....

In Galatians 4:29 it is, "born according to" --- 'kata sarka'.

In John 7:39, it is, "He spoke of the Spirit", meaning "with reference to" --- "peri tou pneymatos". 'Peri' often in other contexts of the same nature as here, can be rendered with 'over'; Jesus spoke "over / about the Spirit".

John 3:6, "He that is born of the flesh is flesh (or fleshly, i.e., naturally prone to sin; sinful); he that is born of the Spirit is spirit (or spiritual, i.e., naturally desiring not to sin; righteous).

Here we have 'ek tou pneumatos'. And it says, "Ek tou pneymatos pneyma estin"! That is "He that is born of the Spirit / out of the Spirit by the Spirit, is alive!"

He that is born of the flesh is DEAD in sin; he that is born "Of / out of / by the (Holy) Spirit, truly and eternally "has eternal LIFE", as Jesus said, "He who has the Son, has eternal Life" -- that is, Christ is his part and that man's part is in Christ, praise God: FOR EVER!

So I believe it has been established that "born of the Spirit" and "born after the Spirit" has two different meanings and applications.

So is there any other scripture that suggest that a person was born of God before the Holy Spirit ministry of regeneration was said to be given which was only after Jesus' glorification?

It is understandable how Gal 4 could throw a curve at first glance but after some research according to the Greek words used it seems that it has been satisfied that it is not speaking of regeneration. I would say "after the flesh" is refering to man's plan and "after the Spirit" is refering to God's plan.

:jesus:

 

[mark1]

Well, this was the OP starter and this is what I said in the OP...



Then GE shed some light on this with....



So I believe it has been established that "born of the Spirit" and "born after the Spirit" has two different meanings and applications.

So is there any other scripture that suggest that a person was born of God before the Holy Spirit ministry of regeneration was said to be given which was only after Jesus' glorification?

It is understandable how Gal 4 could throw a curve at first glance but after some research according to the Greek words used it seems that it has been satisfied that it is not speaking of regeneration. I would say "after the flesh" is refering to man's plan and "after the Spirit" is refering to God's plan.

:jesus:

Born of:​

1080​

gennaw
gennao
ghen-nah'-o​

from a variation of genoV - genos 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.​

Born after:​

4151​

pneuma
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah​

from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.​

There may be two different meanings, except you hold to "born of" as being born of the "Holy Ghost", when the definition of "born after" is the one definitely "born of the Holy Spirit:--Ghost.​

I don't think you have come up with a very good answer. It does not explain the fact that "born after" means "born after Christ's Spirit, the Holy Spirit:--Ghost?​

I have always believed some were filled with the Holy Ghost, before Christ died and were saved. I think there is something to be said about the "blood" having not yet been shed, but don't know yet exactly how to put it.

I think many died in faith, that were saved and no doubt were filled with the Holy Spirit, while here on earth, but received their white robes when Christ died.​

 

[steaver]

There may be two different meanings, except you hold to "born of" as being born of the "Holy Ghost", when the definition of "born after" is the one definitely "born of the Holy Spirit:--Ghost.​

You have lost me with the "gennao" verses "pneuma".

One word means "born" and the other means "spirit". What would this have to do with "of" or "after"?

Born is born whether it says born of the Spirit or born after the Spirit. The issue is "of" and "after". Not "born" and "Spirit".

I think many died in faith, that were saved and no doubt were filled with the Holy Spirit, while here on earth, but received their white robes when Christ died.

We have already covered "filled with the Spirit". Yes, there were people filled with the Holy Ghost all throughout the history of mankind. But being "filled with the Spirit" is not the same as being "born of the Spirit".

Here is the proof of this...

Eph 5:18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Here a believer (one already born of God) is being told to be filled with the Spirit. If your view would be correct, I would have to say, as would you, what are you talking about Paul? I already am filled with the Spirit because I have been regenerated by the Spirit!

 

[mark1]

You have lost me with the "gennao" verses "pneuma".

One word means "born" and the other means "spirit". What would this have to do with "of" or "after"?

Born is born whether it says born of the Spirit or born after the Spirit. The issue is "of" and "after". Not "born" and "Spirit".

We have already covered "filled with the Spirit". Yes, there were people filled with the Holy Ghost all throughout the history of mankind. But being "filled with the Spirit" is not the same as being "born of the Spirit".

Here is the proof of this...

Eph 5:18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Here a believer (one already born of God) is being told to be filled with the Spirit. If your view would be correct, I would have to say, as would you, what are you talking about Paul? I already am filled with the Spirit because I have been regenerated by the Spirit!

Eph 5:19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

You are completely misusing scripture here. Try the Spirits, to see if they are of God. There is more than just "one" Spirit from God. The devil has spirits too, and lead people into thinking untruths. There is the "blind leading the blind". There are many who will say "Lord we have prophesied in thy name", and he will say, depart, I never knew you.


Question:
Those who died in the faith in OT, where did their souls go to?

2Cr 11:13
For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cr 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Cr 11:15
Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[steaver]

You are completely misusing scripture here. Try the Spirits, to see if they are of God. There is more than just "one" Spirit from God. The devil has spirits too, and lead people into thinking untruths. There is the "blind leading the blind". There are many who will say "Lord we have prophesied in thy name", and he will say, depart, I never knew you.

I have misused nothing. Trying the spirits has nothing to do with the command to be filled with the Spirit. Is Paul commanding believers to get born again?

Try the spirits is from 1Jo and has nothing to do with Eph 5:18.

1Jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Stay in context brother!

Question:
Those who died in the faith in OT, where did their souls go to?

Abraham's bosom. (Luke 16:22)

 

[mark1]

I have misused nothing. Trying the spirits has nothing to do with the command to be filled with the Spirit. Is Paul commanding believers to get born again?

Try the spirits is from 1Jo and has nothing to do with Eph 5:18.

1Jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Stay in context brother!




Abraham's bosom. (Luke 16:22)

Abraham's (bosom), where is that?

My point is there are many spirits, some of the devil and some of God. I think you are using one Spirit of God and trying to place it as another. One Spirit of God is being born with, and the one you are speaking of, is worshiping with.

 

[steaver]

Luk 1:15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Let's say being "filled with the Holy Ghost" means regenerated.

Does this then mean that one is regenerated before one places faith in God? Born again brings faith?

Or, is it faith brings born again, thus God has exceptions to faith being a requirement for receiving regeneration?

 

[mark1]

Luk 1:15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Let's say being "filled with the Holy Ghost" means regenerated.

Does this then mean that one is regenerated before one places faith in God? Born again brings faith?

Or, is it faith brings born again, thus God has exceptions to faith being a requirement for receiving regeneration?

John was a man sent of God, before he was ever born. So we can't compare him to the population.
It seems to me the rest had faith, is why it was counted as righteousness.


Abraham's (bosom), where is that?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Steaver:
"So I believe it has been established that "born of the Spirit" and "born after the Spirit" has two different meanings and applications."

GE:
No. It simply does not say, "born after the Spirit", but "out of" (ek) the Spirit". The man who would 'walk / live / obey after / according to (kata) the Spirit', would do so because he has been "born of the Spirit".

The man who is "born according to the flesh" (kata sarka)", Gl4:29, does not 'walk after the Spirit', nor can he, because he is not "born OF/BY the Spirit", "according to / after / as willed the Spirit",

not,
1) because he was born in the flesh a mere mortal human only,
but,
2) because he was born "according to" -'kata' - the LAW of SINFUL fallen human nature that has not been born of the Holy Spirit a new creature to the will of God.