Born of God

[steaver]

GE:
No. It simply does not say, "born after the Spirit", but "out of" (ek) the Spirit". The man who would 'walk / live / obey after / according to (kata) the Spirit', would do so because he has been "born of the Spirit".

John 3 says "of" and Gal 4 says "after". Two different meanings. You are simply adding your own thoughts that one must accompany the other.

I believe the context of Gal 4 points to "man's plan" verses "God's plan" rather than an individual regeneration of the Spirit and this is why it says "after" rather than "of".

I could be wrong, but if this is all you got to support regeneration prior to Jesus' glorification it is a very weak argument in my opinion. John 7:38-39 is just to hard to dismiss.

 

[steaver]

John was a man sent of God, before he was ever born. So we can't compare him to the population.
It seems to me the rest had faith, is why it was counted as righteousness.

So you do believe God has exceptions. I'm not soo sure about that. So John did not have any choice but to be saved and Judas had no choice but to be sent to hell because Judas had to fulfill God's will for his life as well.

 

[steaver]

Abraham's (bosom), where is that?

Are you looking for an address?

We do know that Abraham's bosom and hell was in the same place but a great gulf divided the two (Luke 16). We know that those in hell could see those being saved (awaiting the Sacrifice, glorification and rebirth to come) . This was probably much of their torment.

It is believed by many that when Jesus led captivity captive He gathered those out of Abraham's bosom and took them to heaven. Some say Paradise is heaven but I believe Paradise was another name for Abraham's bosom for there must have been many saints being saved even before Abraham died and entered in. Plus the theif on the cross would not have received the rebirth until after Jesus' glorification and Jesus told him that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day. It also could have been called Abraham's bosom because of the promise made by God that through Abraham's example (faith) those being saved are justified.

:jesus:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

John 3 says "of" and Gal 4 says "after". Two different meanings. You are simply adding your own thoughts that one must accompany the other.

I believe the context of Gal 4 points to "man's plan" verses "God's plan" rather than an individual regeneration of the Spirit and this is why it says "after" rather than "of".

I could be wrong, but if this is all you got to support regeneration prior to Jesus' glorification it is a very weak argument in my opinion. John 7:38-39 is just to hard to dismiss.

GE:
Steaver, God does have that 'plan' : "regeneration" : you're talking of. I do not deny it. But you say it only came into operation after Christ (in His Glorification), while I believe it has always operated on strength of Jesus' glorification both before Christ by faith looking forward to Christ, and after Christ, by faith looking back to Christ -- which in every dispensation has been all the work of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God without any of man's doing or contribution.


Now, I do not give the same word different meanings. John 3 says "of" speaking of God the Subject of the doing whereby a man is "born of the Spirit", and the Greek is by use of the word 'ek' plus the Genitive.

Gal 4 says "after", of man, the subject of the doing of walking "after the flesh", and the Greek is by use of the word 'kata' plus the Accusative : Two different words and two different Cases; of two different meanings: Two different doers; two different deeds, of two different natures.

You, Steaver, are simply making the two equal and the same, by adding your own thought of excluding "an individual regeneration of the Spirit ... prior to Jesus' glorification".

The context of Gal 4 points to man's own and wilful way. In John the context points to "God's plan" versus that very old plan of man of self righteousness and justification by works -- his ailment to this day!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Are you looking for an address?

We do know that Abraham's bosom and hell was in the same place but a great gulf divided the two (Luke 16). We know that those in hell could see those being saved (awaiting the Sacrifice, glorification and rebirth to come) . This was probably much of their torment.

It is believed by many that when Jesus led captivity captive He gathered those out of Abraham's bosom and took them to heaven. Some say Paradise is heaven but I believe Paradise was another name for Abraham's bosom for there must have been many saints being saved even before Abraham died and entered in. Plus the theif on the cross would not have received the rebirth until after Jesus' glorification and Jesus told him that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day. It also could have been called Abraham's bosom because of the promise made by God that through Abraham's example (faith) those being saved are justified.

GE:
I won't abuse the parable of Abraham's bosom like you have done, but shall limit my comment to the case of "the thief on the cross".

By the operation of the Holy Spirit of Christ upon and in his heart, God, wrought in the thief on the cross that "rebirth" whereby only, only God, made it possible for him to ask Jesus to remember him in his Kingdom. He could not have done as much as ask, of himself.
And Jesus actually gave him assurance of irrevocable, eternal life granted him ON THAT VERY DAY AS THE FIRST OF THE LIVING EVER THUS ETERNALLY TO BE SAVED BY THE ATONEMENT MADE BY CHRIST JESUS -- THAT VERY DAY! "I ASSURE YOU, YOU THIS VERY DAY SHALL BE IN PARADISE WITH ME!" It came true on that day, that the life of the praying and confessing thief on the cross was "HID WITH CHRIST IN GOD", as Jesus had sworn, "No one ever shall take one of them out of my hand". That day, while yet alive in the flesh, the old man of the thief on the cross was conquered by Christ's overcoming of death. NEVER HAS A STRONGER SERMON OF GOD'S GRACE BEING PREACHED OR MORE EFFECTIVELY.

The thief on the cross did enter into the kingdom of heaven by the working of the Holy Spirit who did bring about the rebirth by Water and Spirit through grace by faith :

That is, by the Word of God, Jesus Christ - God's Word both in the Person of Him and, then and there spoken and declared - the Living Waters of His Holy Spirit, and of forgiveness and cleansing, and of regeneration and eternal life.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is here that your 'problem' becomes obvious, Steaver : "... the thief on the cross would not have received the rebirth until after Jesus' glorification and Jesus told him that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day." If only you could grasp the inseparability of Jesus' dying and rising! The thief on the cross actually did receive the rebirth ON STRENGTH OF Jesus' glorification THROUGH AND IN RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. That is why Jesus could ASSURE the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day, because Christ knew He "finished" 'at-one-ment' with God for everyone He had come for to save and they through Him would enter into His Rest attained and now being provided for them by His glorification in resurrection from the dead.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You make it - the 'rebirth' or sharing in the glory of Christ -
1) AFTER Christ's glorification -- AFTER his resurrection; and,
2) ONLY after Christ's glorification or resurrection --- not before as well.

You should place it - the 'rebirth' or sharing in the glory of Christ -
1) "IN" and "WITH" and "THROUGH" Christ's glorification -- which was BOTH Christ's DEATH AND RESURRECTION (many Scriptures!); and,
2) BOTH 'before' and 'after' it; and,
3) in man! The 'rebirth' or sharing in the glory of Christ is the part Christ gives a man in Himself; nevertheless it is the gift of Himself in that man and to that man. 'That man', now so to speak, possesses his salvation -- it is truly the case that he is redeemed and saved! (Whether in the age before Christ or in the age after Christ --- actually becomes quite irrelevent a factor.

 

[mark1]

Are you looking for an address?

We do know that Abraham's bosom and hell was in the same place but a great gulf divided the two (Luke 16). We know that those in hell could see those being saved (awaiting the Sacrifice, glorification and rebirth to come) . This was probably much of their torment.

It is believed by many that when Jesus led captivity captive He gathered those out of Abraham's bosom and took them to heaven. Some say Paradise is heaven but I believe Paradise was another name for Abraham's bosom for there must have been many saints being saved even before Abraham died and entered in. Plus the theif on the cross would not have received the rebirth until after Jesus' glorification and Jesus told him that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day. It also could have been called Abraham's bosom because of the promise made by God that through Abraham's example (faith) those being saved are justified.

:jesus:

What makes you think they were in the same place, when hell is down, and heaven is up?

The souls of the wicked go to hell, which is down, for the rich man "lifted up his eyes".

Luk 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


The souls of the righteous goes up, for they are with Jesus, who is with the Father.

Mar 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Phl 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:


Now if all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, all of their souls must of been dead in sin, at one time in their life and had to be made alive, to go to heaven. I don't believe there are any souls "in sin" in heaven, do you?

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

So, if they all sinned, and the soul that sinneth is dead, then for them in the OT to go to heaven at the natural death, they would of had to be quickened by the Spirit. What say you, or do you believe there are souls dead in sin, in heaven?

 

[steaver]

What makes you think they were in the same place, when hell is down, and heaven is up?

Because the scripture says the man in hell could see the man in Abraham's bosom and a great gulf was fixed between them.

The bible declares three areas called "heaven". 1) The atmospheric heavens include the high clouds and the sky of our atmosphere (Gen 1:8, Ps 77:17-18). 2) The second heaven involves outer space beyond our atmosphere that is the abode of the galaxies visible to great telescopes (Ge 15:5). 3) The third heaven is the heaven where the throne of God exist (Isa 14:12-14, Eph 4:10, Rev 4:1-11).

When Jesus preached, He said "no man" hath ever ascended up into heaven except Himself.

Jhn 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

So where did they all go that died in faith before His glorification? Abraham's bosom. After Jesus' glorification He led captivity captive and even ressurrected some giving them their new bodies already as a testimony and a witness.

So, if they all sinned, and the soul that sinneth is dead, then for them in the OT to go to heaven at the natural death, they would of had to be quickened by the Spirit. What say you, ?

I agree. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom for Jesus' glorification so they could enter into heaven.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

By the operation of the Holy Spirit of Christ upon and in his heart, God, wrought in the thief on the cross that "rebirth" whereby only, only God, made it possible for him to ask Jesus to remember him in his Kingdom. He could not have done as much as ask, of himself.

Is it your position GE that no man can believe on Jesus Christ unless the Spirit regenerates him first?

 

[mark1]

Because the scripture says the man in hell could see the man in Abraham's bosom and a great gulf was fixed between them.

The bible declares three areas called "heaven". 1) The atmospheric heavens include the high clouds and the sky of our atmosphere (Gen 1:8, Ps 77:17-18). 2) The second heaven involves outer space beyond our atmosphere that is the abode of the galaxies visible to great telescopes (Ge 15:5). 3) The third heaven is the heaven where the throne of God exist (Isa 14:12-14, Eph 4:10, Rev 4:1-11).

When Jesus preached, He said "no man" hath ever ascended up into heaven except Himself.

Jhn 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

So where did they all go that died in faith before His glorification? Abraham's bosom. After Jesus' glorification He led captivity captive and even ressurrected some giving them their new bodies already as a testimony and a witness.



I agree. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom for Jesus' glorification so they could enter into heaven.

:jesus:

Because the rich man could see across the gulf, does not mean that Abraham was in hell. I never heard such doctrine until I came on BB.
Abraham (bosom) was a type and figure of God. Their souls being with God, does not mean men with God. I grant you they did not receive their white robes until Jesus died, but they did go to heaven, to a place of rest until the resurrection. Something disturbed them and they cried, but God gave them white robes, which came "only" from the blood of the Lamb.

Hell was created for the wicked. Not the children of God.

Psa 9:17The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.

Rev 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Where did you get your three heavens?

Eph 2:6And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Question;
Regardless of where Abraham's (bosom) is. You do agree that the OT saints were righteous don't you?

The were among the "all" have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, which would make them also among them "the soul that sinneth shall die". If the saints of the OT were righteous, they must of been "made alive" or they could not be "righteous". Do you agree with that?

If they sinned and the "soul that sinneth shall die", their soul was "dead" at one time, they had to be "made alive", or "born again" of the spirit.

Or, born again "after the Spirit". right?

 

[steaver]

Because the rich man could see across the gulf, does not mean that Abraham was in hell. I never heard such doctrine until I came on BB.

Mark, with all due respect, you need to read my replies more carefully. I never said Abraham was in hell.

Abraham (bosom) was a type and figure of God.

You'll have to supply some scripture for this one.

Hell was created for the wicked. Not the children of God.

We have some agreement! :thumbs: OSAS!

Where did you get your three heavens?

Re-read my post.

Question;
Regardless of where Abraham's (bosom) is. You do agree that the OT saints were righteous don't you?

Declared so by God through faith.

If the saints of the OT were righteous, they must of been "made alive" or they could not be "righteous". Do you agree with that?

No, faith sustained their righteousness before God. Nothing to do with regeneration.

If they sinned and the "soul that sinneth shall die", their soul was "dead" at one time, they had to be "made alive", or "born again" of the spirit.

Correct, the argument is WHEN.

Or, born again "after the Spirit". right?

Born again "of the Spirit".

:jesus:

 

[mark1]

Mark, with all due respect, you need to read my replies more carefully. I never said Abraham was in hell.



You'll have to supply some scripture for this one.



We have some agreement! :thumbs: OSAS!



Re-read my post.



Declared so by God through faith.



No, faith sustained their righteousness before God. Nothing to do with regeneration.



Correct, the argument is WHEN.



Born again "of the Spirit".

:jesus:

Well, we seem to have some agreement for a change.

Can a person be righteous and not have a soul that is alive, but dead in sin?

Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels.

Can a person have salvation, and also have a soul dead in sin?

 

[steaver]

Can a person have salvation, and also have a soul dead in sin?

First of all, a person is a soul. So you would ask, can a soul have salvation and also be dead in sin?

What say you?

It is the spirit within that is quickened. You still sin though, correct?

 

[mark1]

First of all, a person is a soul. So you would ask, can a soul have salvation and also be dead in sin?

What say you?

It is the spirit within that is quickened. You still sin though, correct?

I say in the OT that the soul in most cases represents the whole man or person, but it also speaks of the soul as being the inward part of a man also.

Pro 10:3The LORD will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked.

If the soul sinneth, it is dead to God and so is the flesh, making the whole man dead in sin.
If a man is righteous, then his soul (inward part) has been made alive because of "faith". The outward man has not yet been delivered but is kept by the power of God.

Does he sin?
Yes, but not the kind of sins you say he does.

Everyone seems to turn a blind eye, when scripture says "there is a sin, not unto death". Do you realize what that is saying, when scripture says the "wages of sin is death".
Scripture says "all unrighteous is sin" AND there is a sin not unto death. The AND is telling us there is two kind of sin. One comes under the "wages of sin is death" the other, you tell me. I think I know, but you tell me what you think.

Do not pretend that "AND" is not in there, for it is.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Is it your position GE that no man can believe on Jesus Christ unless the Spirit regenerates him first?

GE:
I'm glad and grateful you asked the question, because I'm glad and grateful to answer: ABSOLUTELY YES!

And may I add, that such has it been before as after the death and resurrection of Christ -- in or under both Old and New Testaments!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Mark1:
"If the soul sinneth, it is dead to God and so is the flesh, making the whole man dead in sin.
If a man is righteous, then his soul (inward part) has been made alive because of "faith". The outward man has not yet been delivered but is kept by the power of God."

GE:
"If a man is righteous, then his soul (inward part) has been made alive because of "faith"," gives not the whole picture.

If a man has been made alive (--- never, "because of "faith"", but always "by faith" as God's way of doing things; "by faith" as God's way of making a man righteous and 'alive' ---),

if a man THUS has been made alive, THEN "his soul (inward part) has been made alive", TRUE, YET his 'old man', "his soul (inward part)" lives on, side by side with his NEW "inward part" that "has been made alive". It is a mysterie undeniably, which is also seen its EFFECT, namely, the CONFLICT between the old and 'dead in sin', 'inner man'; and the NEW and 'made alive', 'inner man' or 'soul'.

Don't try to unravel the mysterie, because it is the "mysterie of godliness". Just like we cannot fathom the being of God, we cannot probe the depths of this miracle which is the new creation of God's grace.

 

[steaver]

Does he sin?
Yes, but not the kind of sins you say he does.

Everyone seems to turn a blind eye, when scripture says "there is a sin, not unto death". Do you realize what that is saying, when scripture says the "wages of sin is death".
Scripture says "all unrighteous is sin" AND there is a sin not unto death. The AND is telling us there is two kind of sin. One comes under the "wages of sin is death" the other, you tell me. I think I know, but you tell me what you think.

Do not pretend that "AND" is not in there, for it is.

1) define "unto death". Is it speaking of spiritual death or physical death? Is God going to put the person to death or the government?

2) define "sin not unto death". I personally as a born of God believer have committed adultery and have lied as well. Since I am still alive physically and alive spiritually these sins must not be unto death. God has forgiven me.

3) "sin" is the transgression of the law. this covers all sin. So could the "sin unto death" be refering to a sin one has committed that has brought on the governmental death penalty and thus there is no point in praying to God for this man's physical life to be spared. For the scripture says if you pray for a brother's sin which is a sin not unto death God will give the brother life.

 

[mark1]

Mark1:
"If the soul sinneth, it is dead to God and so is the flesh, making the whole man dead in sin.
If a man is righteous, then his soul (inward part) has been made alive because of "faith". The outward man has not yet been delivered but is kept by the power of God."

GE:
"If a man is righteous, then his soul (inward part) has been made alive because of "faith"," gives not the whole picture.

If a man has been made alive (--- never, "because of "faith"", but always "by faith" as God's way of doing things; "by faith" as God's way of making a man righteous and 'alive' ---),

if a man THUS has been made alive, THEN "his soul (inward part) has been made alive", TRUE, YET his 'old man', "his soul (inward part)" lives on, side by side with his NEW "inward part" that "has been made alive". It is a mysterie undeniably, which is also seen its EFFECT, namely, the CONFLICT between the old and 'dead in sin', 'inner man'; and the NEW and 'made alive', 'inner man' or 'soul'.

Don't try to unravel the mysterie, because it is the "mysterie of godliness". Just like we cannot fathom the being of God, we cannot probe the depths of this miracle which is the new creation of God's grace.

GE;
I think you misspoke, but not sure. If you are saying that the old "outward" man lives on with the "new" inward" man, which the "new" inward man is made alive, then I agree.

If you are saying there are "two" inner men, then I disagree.

I do believe the "inner" man is made alive by faith and the Spirit, but the old "outward" man is still dead, until the resurrection. I believe the old "outward" man, is a kept man, by the Power of God.

 

[mark1]

1) define "unto death". Is it speaking of spiritual death or physical death? Is God going to put the person to death or the government?

I see not reason for me to define a sin unto death, when scripture already does so.

Rom 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2) define "sin not unto death". I personally as a born of God believer have committed adultery and have lied as well. Since I am still alive physically and alive spiritually these sins must not be unto death. God has forgiven me.

I just did, see above.

As far as your salvation, that is between you and God, and I will not bring it into this discussion. I saw one brother falsely accused and banned, in my opinion. I don't intend on doing the same.


3) "sin" is the transgression of the law. this covers all sin. So could the "sin unto death" be refering to a sin one has committed that has brought on the governmental death penalty and thus there is no point in praying to God for this man's physical life to be spared. For the scripture says if you pray for a brother's sin which is a sin not unto death God will give the brother life.

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I say, it is restoring the joy of his salvation, so as to have a spiritual life while here on earth.

There is a sin not unto death, has to be the sin that Jesus is the advocate for and chastises his childern, so they be not condemned with the world.

It is the only sin that I know of where "death" is not attached to it.

1Cr 11:32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.