Born of God

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE;
I think you misspoke, but not sure. If you are saying that the old "outward" man lives on with the "new" inward" man, which the "new" inward man is made alive, then I agree.

If you are saying there are "two" inner men, then I disagree.

I do believe the "inner" man is made alive by faith and the Spirit, but the old "outward" man is still dead, until the resurrection. I believe the old "outward" man, is a kept man, by the Power of God.

GE:
I understand what you say. I do not agree with you. The 'outward man' in the sense of the 'healthy individual', is of no concern in this matter. There are MANY Scriptures, but read only Romans 6 to 8 and it becomes obvious there is that thing called 'the old man' living on as the sinful inner self or 'nature' of a saved and righteous man. Within the unregenerate there is only 'the old man' of sin who dominates; conflict between two 'natures' this man cannot know, because he has not been 'born again'. The rebirth simply is the introduction of the new and strange principle of righteousness and life in someone's 'HEART' - it has nothing to do with his bodily state of being 'pre-death' and not yet 'post-resurrection'.

 

[mark1]

GE:
I understand what you say. I do not agree with you. The 'outward man' in the sense of the 'healthy individual', is of no concern in this matter. There are MANY Scriptures, but read only Romans 6 to 8 and it becomes obvious there is that thing called 'the old man' living on as the sinful inner self or 'nature' of a saved and righteous man. Within the unregenerate there is only 'the old man' of sin who dominates; conflict between two 'natures' this man cannot know, because he has not been 'born again'. The rebirth simply is the introduction of the new and strange principle of righteousness and life in someone's 'HEART' - it has nothing to do with his bodily state of being 'pre-death' and not yet 'post-resurrection'.

The outward man has to be a part of this, for its when you lend your members to commit acts which is sin, and brings forth death.

I have never heard of two "inner" men. To be "born again" it has to be the same man, if its another "inner" man, it would be a creation.

2Cr 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
Rom 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
2Cr 5:17
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Col 3:8
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:8
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10
And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

I made it large so you can read it. I am old myself.

 

[steaver]

As far as your salvation, that is between you and God, and I will not bring it into this discussion. I saw one brother falsely accused and banned, in my opinion. I don't intend on doing the same.

Where did my salvation come into this? We are talking about "sin unto death".

I see not reason for me to define a sin unto death, when scripture already does so.

Rom 6:23For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't understand what your answer is. Sin is transgression of the law. Do you have a specific sin in mind that you would say is a "sin unto death"?

Personally I have committed adultery, lied, stole, coveted, I have transgressed the law in many ways as a born of God believer in Jesus Christ. And as I said, I am obviously still alive physically as well as still born of God. Praise be to God!

So what then is this "sin unto death" and how do we know a brother has committed it?

 

[mark1]

Where did my salvation come into this? We are talking about "sin unto death".



I don't understand what your answer is. Sin is transgression of the law. Do you have a specific sin in mind that you would say is a "sin unto death"?

Personally I have committed adultery, lied, stole, coveted, I have transgressed the law in many ways as a born of God believer in Jesus Christ. And as I said, I am obviously still alive physically as well as still born of God. Praise be to God!

So what then is this "sin unto death" and how do we know a brother has committed it?

I did the same thing as you say you did, and was on my way to "hell". I repented of my sins and was "born again". I am now a child of God also, and I am also kept by the power of God and will never be doing those things again. Praise the Lord, that He said He would never leave me and had lost none, saving the son of perdition, and will present me blameless, soul, spirit and body in the resurrection.
The steps of a good man are ordered of the Lord, and He has never led me down that grevious sin road since my new birth.

 

[steaver]

GE:
I'm glad and grateful you asked the question, because I'm glad and grateful to answer: ABSOLUTELY YES!

I understand why some believers embrace this doctrine. It takes some serious study to reach such a conclusion. Most believers could care less one way or the other, they just simply trust Jesus Christ and let it go.

There is one thing that causes great pause for me when contemplating whether or not your view holds up. I know quite a few believers who have the following testimony in some way...

A man spends his life going about his self centered ways, caring less about God or any "childen of God". This man has had many witnesses give him the Word of God concerning his sins and his need for forgiveness through receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour. Over and over he rejects the Word and goes on his way sinning as he pleases with no remorse. Years go by, maybe tens of years goes by, and low and behold yet another witness gives him the Word of Life and God regenerates him and he receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of his life. His life is different now and his selfish ways wither away and Jesus becomes his passion!

Why did God let the man spend most of his life in sin when He could have regenerated the man in his youth. Afterall, God knew the man would be regenerated, why allow all of the sin? God surely does not want His future children to live in sin apart from the body of Christ does He? Why would God let the destruction carry on for so long?

 

[steaver]

I did the same thing as you say you did, and was on my way to "hell". I repented of my sins and was "born again". I am now a child of God also, and I am also kept by the power of God and will never be doing those things again. Praise the Lord, that He said He would never leave me and had lost none, saving the son of perdition, and will present me blameless, soul, spirit and body in the resurrection.
The steps of a good man are ordered of the Lord, and He has never led me down that grevious sin road since my new birth.

That is not quite the same as me. I was born again at age ten and committed these sins at age 23-33.

 

[mark1]

Personally I have committed adultery, lied, stole, coveted, I have transgressed the law in many ways as a born of God believer in Jesus Christ. And as I said, I am obviously still alive physically as well as still born of God. Praise be to God!


That is not quite the same as me. I was born again at age ten and committed these sins at age 23-33.

How do you harmonize the above with the below. Both are your posts?

I understand why some believers embrace this doctrine. It takes some serious study to reach such a conclusion. Most believers could care less one way or the other, they just simply trust Jesus Christ and let it go.

There is one thing that causes great pause for me when contemplating whether or not your view holds up. I know quite a few believers who have the following testimony in some way...

A man spends his life going about his self centered ways, caring less about God or any "childen of God". This man has had many witnesses give him the Word of God concerning his sins and his need for forgiveness through receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour. Over and over he rejects the Word and goes on his way sinning as he pleases with no remorse. Years go by, maybe tens of years goes by, and low and behold yet another witness gives him the Word of Life and God regenerates him and he receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of his life. His life is different now and his selfish ways wither away and Jesus becomes his passion!

Why did God let the man spend most of his life in sin when He could have regenerated the man in his youth. Afterall, God knew the man would be regenerated, why allow all of the sin? God surely does not want His future children to live in sin apart from the body of Christ does He? Why would God let the destruction carry on for so long?

__________________
steaver

 

[steaver]

How do you harmonize the above with the below. Both are your posts?

You'll have to get specific brother. :thumbs:

 

[mark1]

You'll have to get specific brother. :thumbs:

I underlined it for you. I really don't see no reason for you not to understand the question?

 

[steaver]

I underlined it for you. I really don't see no reason for you not to understand the question?

I am still not sure what you see as problematic. Unregenerated man sins without conviction. I sinned with heavy conviction for I knew the Lord.

 

[mark1]

I am still not sure what you see as problematic. Unregenerated man sins without conviction. I sinned with heavy conviction for I knew the Lord.

God regenerates him and he receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of his life. His life is different now and his selfish ways wither away and Jesus becomes his passion!

Why would Christ become his passion, but apparently not yours. You passion, seem to be all those sins, you said you were committing? If Christ was your passion, how could you committ such destruction for so long?

Why would God let the destruction carry on for so long?

Why would you ask him, why God let the destruction carry on in his life for so long, but yet, you lived in destruction for at least 10 or 11 years? Why not ask yourself that question instead of someone else.

 

[steaver]

I think I see what you are seeing.

When I was born again at age ten I too had a passion for Jesus Christ. I prayed faithfully and listened to the Holy Spirit as I led my life and was in constant communication with Him. At age 23 I let my frustration well up inside me and I went into my first bar (is where all my friends ended up)while the Holy Spirit heavily convicted me not to do it and gave me many outs to take. I rejected those outs and went against His promptings. From this it transgressed into other sins and all the while the Holy Spirit was right there within me pleading with me to repent. After years went by the convictions were not as great and eventually I did not pay much attention at all to God and only called upon him when I needed something. I had become self centered, it is a slow fade, as the song says.

But praise be to God, rather than kill me and take me home He brought special cicumstances into my life and then He sent two brothers in the Lord to my house and they witnessed to me from the scriptures concerning my relationship with Jesus. I repented and God has given me a second chance to do the works that He had foreordained I should do. Praise Him for His longsuffering!

So the one post is about a regenerated person falling into sin and the other is about a person being born of God for the first time. Although I should say that not all come out of the gate with a passion for Jesus. Each new born developes at his own pace. I added that for the sake of contrasting the vast difference between unregenerated and regenerated at it's best!

 

[steaver]

I am now a child of God also, and I am also kept by the power of God and will never be doing those things again.

"Kept by the power of God" is about the operation of faith unto salvation. You are misconstruing it to mean 'kept from sinning'.

1Pe 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Was David kept from committing adultery? Where you differ from the brother who was banned, who btw believed also that a regenerated believer could not commit such a sin, is that he dismissed David's sin because he believed as I do that regeneration did not happen at least until after Jesus' ministry here on earth. So he believed David had not been born again yet and is why he was able to commit the sin.

But you believe regeneration did happen in the OT and therefore David would have been born again according to your belief. David believed on the Lord long before he ever committed adultery, this is documented.

 

[mark1]

"Kept by the power of God" is about the operation of faith unto salvation. You are misconstruing it to mean 'kept from sinning'.

1Pe 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Was David kept from committing adultery? Where you differ from the brother who was banned, who btw believed also that a regenerated believer could not commit such a sin, is that he dismissed David's sin because he believed as I do that regeneration did not happen at least until after Jesus' ministry here on earth. So he believed David had not been born again yet and is why he was able to commit the sin.

But you believe regeneration did happen in the OT and therefore David would have been born again according to your belief. David believed on the Lord long before he ever committed adultery, this is documented.

According to the profile of the brother that was banned, he is a Pastor for 27 years and an ordained minister for 36. 19 years at his present church.
thro they were filled with the Holy Spirit, at least some were, they had not received the promise yet of the Messiah. They only made sacrifices of animals which "stayed" their sins from year to year and were still in need of the blood, to cover their sins forever. So, they committed sins, that we cannot sin as Christians. I too believe that Christians do not commit such grevious sins as the world commits. If the blood of animals could of kept them, there would of been no need for the coming of Christ.

2Pe 2:9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

There is a difference of being "filled" with the Holy Spirit and the receiving of the blood of Christ.

Hbr 11:28
Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Hbr 9:13
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hbr 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood of animals could easily be trampled on, but the blood of Christ is too precious to be put to an open shame.

 

[mark1]

I think I see what you are seeing.

When I was born again at age ten I too had a passion for Jesus Christ. I prayed faithfully and listened to the Holy Spirit as I led my life and was in constant communication with Him. At age 23 I let my frustration well up inside me and I went into my first bar (is where all my friends ended up)while the Holy Spirit heavily convicted me not to do it and gave me many outs to take. I rejected those outs and went against His promptings. From this it transgressed into other sins and all the while the Holy Spirit was right there within me pleading with me to repent. After years went by the convictions were not as great and eventually I did not pay much attention at all to God and only called upon him when I needed something. I had become self centered, it is a slow fade, as the song says.

But praise be to God, rather than kill me and take me home He brought special cicumstances into my life and then He sent two brothers in the Lord to my house and they witnessed to me from the scriptures concerning my relationship with Jesus. I repented and God has given me a second chance to do the works that He had foreordained I should do. Praise Him for His longsuffering!

So the one post is about a regenerated person falling into sin and the other is about a person being born of God for the first time. Although I should say that not all come out of the gate with a passion for Jesus. Each new born developes at his own pace. I added that for the sake of contrasting the vast difference between unregenerated and regenerated at it's best!

Sorry, but you seem to have changed your belief somewhat here. This is not the same as you told GE.
You ask GE:

Why would God let the destruction carry on for so long?

Why did He?

Also, why did your selfish ways not wither away?

His life is different now and his selfish ways wither away and Jesus becomes his passion!

You told GE, that this is what happens. I do not understand the double standard.

 

[steaver]

You told GE, that this is what happens. I do not understand the double standard.

I explained it once, I don't know what saying it over again would accomplish.

thro they were filled with the Holy Spirit, at least some were, they had not received the promise yet of the Messiah. They only made sacrifices of animals which "stayed" their sins from year to year and were still in need of the blood, to cover their sins forever.

So how did the OT saints enter heaven without the shed blood of Jesus?

I too believe that Christians do not commit such grevious sins as the world commits.

You believe a falsehood. I know from experience and I also know many other Christians who have transgressed the law as well. But praise be to God for even though we fall into greivious sins we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation! Praise Him!!

A question for you. A ten year old boy hears the gospel and calls on Jesus Christ to save him. Would God refuse his call?

 

[mark1]

I explained it once, I don't know what saying it over again would accomplish.



So how did the OT saints enter heaven without the shed blood of Jesus?

Luk 16:29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

They went to the same place that Lazurus did, the bosom of Abraham, waiting for the promise to be fulfilled of the perfect sacrifice, so they could receive their robes from the blood of the Lamb.


You believe a falsehood. I know from experience and I also know many other Christians who have transgressed the law as well. But praise be to God for even though we fall into greivious sins we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation! Praise Him!!

We shall know one day for sure!

A question for you. A ten year old boy hears the gospel and calls on Jesus Christ to save him. Would God refuse his call?

Still a double standard. IMO

If the Law had entered him and sin was "revived", then yes,God would hear his call.
The point is, how many 10 year olds will be standing at the great wall of LoF? You must reach the age of accountability and your soul die in sin, in order to be made alive.
If you are already alive, then you can't be made alive.

BTW, I don't baptize 10 year olds.:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

They went to the same place that Lazurus did, the bosom of Abraham, waiting for the promise to be fulfilled of the perfect sacrifice, so they could receive their robes from the blood of the Lamb.

Which you call heaven and that does not answer the question. How does one enter heaven without Jesus' sacrifice?

We shall know one day for sure!

I already know for sure.Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And I have known since age ten.

You must reach the age of accountability and your soul die in sin, in order to be made alive.

Scripture please!

If the Law had entered him and sin was "revived", then yes,God would hear his call.

The law is in every person from birth. It is called a God given conscience. When I was five years old I knew it was wrong to lie to my parents.

BTW, I don't baptize 10 year olds.:thumbs:

Then you break Jesus' command.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=10&v=14&t=KJV#14Mark 10:14; But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Why don't you? Do you stand in judgment of their confession unto Jesus Christ? What would be the difference between a ten year old confessing and a fifty year old confessing? Do you think a fifty year old can understand the gospel better than a ten year old? I teach ten year olds and I can tell you that they understand more about the gospel than many of fity year old pew warmers. I say shame on you for forbidding them.

 

[mark1]

Which you call heaven and that does not answer the question. How does one enter heaven without Jesus' sacrifice?



I already know for sure.Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And I have known since age ten.



Scripture please!

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Impossible to die, if you already dead.


The law is in every person from birth. It is called a God given conscience. When I was five years old I knew it was wrong to lie to my parents.

Scripture please!


Then you break Jesus' command.

Do you happen to know of a scripture where I have to baptize children, for them to become part of the Kingdom, when Jesus said they already are a part??

Mark 10:14; But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Why don't you? Do you stand in judgment of their confession unto Jesus Christ? What would be the difference between a ten year old confessing and a fifty year old confessing? Do you think a fifty year old can understand the gospel better than a ten year old? I teach ten year olds and I can tell you that they understand more about the gospel than many of fity year old pew warmers. I say shame on you for forbidding them.

Mat 19:14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Already is the kingdom, not going to be after you baptize them.

Can you show me scripture to children?

I wonder why so many have to be baptized over again, when they get older?

 

[steaver]

Can you show me scripture to children?

Mark 10:14; But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

The law is in every person from birth. It is called a God given conscience. When I was five years old I knew it was wrong to lie to my parents.

Scripture please!

Rom 2:15; Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Impossible to die, if you already dead.

Rom 5:12; Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I wonder why so many have to be baptized over again, when they get older?

Baptized over again in your eyes. In God's eye's it only needs to be done once.

You missed this question; How does one enter heaven without Jesus' sacrifice?