Born of water?

[percho]

Abraham did not have any children.

Abraham wanted to make his servant Eliezer, Lazarus of Luke Chapter 16, his heir but God told him no.

Abraham was imputed with the righteousness of God because God had called him .

God called Abram out of unbelief unto belief as Abraham. We are told of this imputation of the righteousness of God to Abraham the believer who was called when the seed of Abraham is brought into the picture. This seed of Abraham is the seed of the promise of God, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the only begotten of God born of woman. It is the promise to be inherited, the hope of eternal life. The one who inherits the promise of God becomes the faith. The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Jesus the Christ, the seed of Abraham, was the faith Abraham died in not having received the promises (eternal life). Read Galatians 3. Abraham was imputed with the righteousness of God being called by God into belief and will therefore because of the faith, that did come, the death and resurrection of his seed the Christ, Abraham will be resurrected into the kingdom of God with eternal life.

Two things as the truth of God to have been satated before the foundation of the world.

The lamb of God was ordained to die which required this lamb come into the world subject to death and a promise of God who cannot lie, the hope of eternal life.

Those two things were determined before God said, "Let there be light."

Death and the hope of life.

What is FAITH?

 

[percho]

1 Peter 1:21 Who by him (Jesus) do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Why will we believe? Because we will be called.

Why did Paul on the way to Damascus to imprison and or kill believers all of a sudden become a believer?

 

[psalms109:31]

That is what happened at Pentecost when God poured out His Spirit on all those that God said to wait in Jerusalem and they obey God. It is when He poured out His Spirit on the earth and all who believed received the promised in God's timing not ours or yours.

We are to wash our self in His word and God will change us. We remain in Christ no matter what even if believe we are faithless and we will receive what is promised. Do not let anyone give you any reason to leave such a sure foundation.

Acts 2:
Peter Addresses the Crowd

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[Joel 2:28-32]

John 7:39
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[Or me. And let anyone drink 38 who believes in me.” As Scripture has said, “Out of him (or them) will flow rivers of living water.”]By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 19

19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

Luke 24:49
I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

We have a new heart when we are no longer separated from the Holy Spirit, but this is given to those who believe.


There is no life, no regeneration without the words of life period.

We can have ears to hear and never get to heaven by the words of life, Jesus tells us we put on His yoke and not just listen, but listen and learn. You can listen all you want to and never get any where until you put it into your life and learn from Him.

His words are Spirit and they are life that we need to live, there is no life apart from Christ.

Isaiah 6 :
9 He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.[Hebrew; Septuagint ‘You will be ever hearing, but never understanding; / you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ / 10 This people’s heart has become calloused; / they hardly hear with their ears, / and they have closed their eyes]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “For how long, Lord?”

And he answered:

“Until the cities lie ruined
and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
and the fields ruined and ravaged,
12 until the Lord has sent everyone far away
and the land is utterly forsaken.
13 And though a tenth remains in the land,
it will again be laid waste.
But as the terebinth and oak
leave stumps when they are cut down,
so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.”

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous.

Proverbs 3 :
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.


When we have a heart of flesh we start caring again for others to have what we have in Christ salvation, instead of a heart of stone that only cares about what is inside the stone. A heart of stone doesn't care about anything out side it self

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Would the Leopards be healed if they did not do what Jesus told them to do.They were not healed by the water but by His word. We should do what Jesus tells us to do because Jesus will do what He say's He will do. We are already clean by His word not by what we have done so do it.

Faith without action is dead. To trust in God is not a work only men make it one by believing it is. Trusting in God is trusting in His work.

Leopards? I do not recall Jesus healing any jungle cats.

 

[kyredneck]

....There is no evidence that he was saved immediately, but rather more evidence that he was saved some time later on....

Where is 'saved' [sozo] anywhere to be found in the text? Are you indiscriminately making regeneration (BAFA) synonymous with conversion (saved)?

Nicodemus was ATTRACTED to Christ, he was drawn to the light because God had already wrought within him as described in v 21 .

But you are correct, Nicodemus did not convert immediately, just as the rich young ruler did not.

 

[salzer mtn]

Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit. When a person is born of the Spirit, in your oppinion is this transformation of recieving a heart of flesh, recieving life from the dead (1) A work that is realized at the time it happens (2) Can only be proven by ones self by bearing fruit of the Spirit (3) A term that you except because the word of God say's you recieved the Holy Spirit. Anyone want to comment on this ?

 

[psalms109:31]

Leopards? I do not recall Jesus healing any jungle cats.

It's a jungle book version. The bear necessities. You caught that I mean lepers.

 

[kyredneck]

Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit. When a person is born of the Spirit, in your oppinion is this transformation of recieving a heart of flesh, recieving life from the dead (1) A work that is realized at the time it happens...

Varies from one to another I think. Conversion is often a very dramatic event for some.

(2) Can only be proven by ones self by bearing fruit of the Spirit...

'Not the hearers but the doers are justified' is a common theme throughout the scriptures:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1793086#post1793086

The Samaritan (whom the Jews referred to as 'dogs') acted out of compassion, by nature of his heart, to help him who had fallen to the robbers. The priest and the Levite went to the other side of the road and walked on by. 'Not the hearers but the doers are justified'.

When one has been BAFA, the work of the law has been written in their hearts, and they do 'by nature' the things of the law, which is summed up simply in passages such as Mt 7:12 and Ro 13:9,10.

(3) A term that you except because the word of God say's you recieved the Holy Spirit.....

I don't know how to articulate this other than 'born of the Spirit' and 'indwelling of the Spirit' are two different operations of the same Spirit.

 

[percho]

1. When one is born of the flesh does that one at that time inherit the kingdom of God?
2. When ones is born of water does that one at that time inherit the kingdom of God?
3. When one is born of the Spirit does that one at that time inherit the kingdom of God?
4. When any of the above die and are buried does that one at that time inherit the kingdom of God?
5. Do you mean to tell me there is something that absolutely must take place beyond being born of Spirit the God before that one so born can inherit the kingdom of God?


6. Why?

Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
When his disciples heard, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


what good thing shall I do,

 

[DHK]

Seriously?!

Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 12:1-3, ESV)

We know what God promised Abraham: "I will make of you a great nation and make your name great..."

That promise was made when Abram was in Haran.

After the promise was made, Abram left Haran: So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. (Genesis 12:4, ESV)

The promise was part of the call--and all this while Abram was an idol worshiper and long before the text says his faith was counted as righteousness.

The Archangel

Before he "left his father's house" they had already began their journey.
How long before the above promise of blessing Abraham believed we do not know.

Genesis 11:31 Terah took Abram his son, Lot the son of Haran, his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife. They went forth from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan. They came to Haran and lived there.

 

[kyredneck]

...5. Do you mean to tell me there is something that absolutely must take place beyond being born of Spirit the God before that one so born can inherit the kingdom of God?...

A difficulty held in common within all theologies is where to draw the line, or make a clear distinction, between God's sovereignty and man’s responsibility. At what point does the realm of the eternal where man is totally passive end, and where does the realm of the temporal where man is active and held accountable begin?

The Primitives in general have given it their best shot to do this and rightly divide by making the distinction between eternal salvation (BAFA, regeneration) and gospel salvation (saved, conversion, profession of Christ as LORD). A short easy read on this is Elder Mike Gowens' essay:

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling

There also is a distinction to be made between the eternal and the temporal aspects of the kingdom. The term you use above, “inherit the kingdom” seems to imply the eternal aspect (as in final destination) from passages such as Mt 25:34, 1 Cor 15:50, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:21. The passage of Jn 3:5 reads “enter the kingdom” which implies the temporal aspect of the kingdom which is available to be had now as shown in passages such as Ro 14:17 and 2 Pe 1:11, i.e. to reap the immense benefits of a New Covenant relationship with God.

I waffle with Jn 3:5. It could mean ‘born of water even the Spirit’, to which others have posted good passages that would support that take on it. But v. 3:5 differs from v. 3:3 in that the latter deals with the ability to see and the other with the ability to enter. Water could also signify either water baptism, or, the gospel (word) from the standpoint of a profession of faith in order to become a partaker of the benefits of the New Covenant, NOT to be BAFA, man is passive in regeneration.

To answer your question, yes, it is absolutely necessary for the regenerate to obey the gospel in order to enter into the kingdom of God here on earth in this temporal realm.

[add] I don't think Christ was referring to 'amniotic fluid' when He used the word 'water'.

 

[The Archangel]

Before he "left his father's house" they had already began their journey.
How long before the above promise of blessing Abraham believed we do not know.

Genesis 11:31 Terah took Abram his son, Lot the son of Haran, his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife. They went forth from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan. They came to Haran and lived there.

Now, of course, you're chasing a rabbit--away from the original discussion. However, you are still incorrect.

Abram was called while he was in Haran. He had already been brought out of Ur (which God Himself claimed was His doing). But, the text here is quite clear: God came to Abram while he was in Haran and the promises were given then, not before. Thus, Abraham is called and given the promise before his faith is counted as righteousness, which is the point of the discussion.

Of course, if you read Acts 7, Stephen says that God called Abram from Mesopotamia, which would be Ur, not Haran. But, Stephen gets the years of Terah differently than the text in Genesis. It is very likely that Stephen is referencing tradition, perhaps Talmudic tradition, perhaps the Samaritan tradition, perhaps the Pharisaical tradition, not the text itself. The point of Stephen's speech is to recount Israelite history and it is done "loosely" in some areas and he is very selective, simply giving highlights.

But, the thrust of Stephen's speech, as well as God's "speech" in Genesis 15 is the same: God called Abraham; God moved Abraham. And, it must be noted, all this moving was done before Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness.

The Archangel

 

[salzer mtn]

A difficulty held in common within all theologies is where to draw the line, or make a clear distinction, between God's sovereignty and man’s responsibility. At what point does the realm of the eternal where man is totally passive end, and where does the realm of the temporal where man is active and held accountable begin?

The Primitives in general have given it their best shot to do this and rightly divide by making the distinction between eternal salvation (BAFA, regeneration) and gospel salvation (saved, conversion, profession of Christ as LORD). A short easy read on this is Elder Mike Gowens' essay:

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling

There also is a distinction to be made between the eternal and the temporal aspects of the kingdom. The term you use above, “inherit the kingdom” seems to imply the eternal aspect (as in final destination) from passages such as Mt 25:34, 1 Cor 15:50, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:21. The passage of Jn 3:5 reads “enter the kingdom” which implies the temporal aspect of the kingdom which is available to be had now as shown in passages such as Ro 14:17 and 2 Pe 1:11, i.e. to reap the immense benefits of a New Covenant relationship with God.

I waffle with Jn 3:5. It could mean ‘born of water even the Spirit’, to which others have posted good passages that would support that take on it. But v. 3:5 differs from v. 3:3 in that the latter deals with the ability to see and the other with the ability to enter. Water could also signify either water baptism, or, the gospel (word) from the standpoint of a profession of faith in order to become a partaker of the benefits of the New Covenant, NOT to be BAFA, man is passive in regeneration.

To answer your question, yes, it is absolutely necessary for the regenerate to obey the gospel in order to enter into the kingdom of God here on earth in this temporal realm.

[add] I don't think Christ was referring to 'amniotic fluid' when He used the word 'water'.

I read the article and it does answer a lot of questions.:thumbsup:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

It's a jungle book version. The bear necessities. You caught that I mean lepers.

.................

 

[Yeshua1]

Ezekiel 36:25-26

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I would say Nick@nite would have recalled this.

reference to the time when the Holy spirit will come upon Israel, and grant the nation a new heart, when they have learned to say ;blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"

 

[Yeshua1]

I read the article and it does answer a lot of questions.:thumbsup:

The problem though is that in order to have temporal or eternally application, ONe MUST be reborn again, MUST have received chrsit by faith, the Bible does not say you are in one or other, but are in BOTH, based upon being 'saved!"

 

[kyredneck]

The problem though is that in order to have temporal or eternally application, ONe MUST be reborn again, MUST have received chrsit by faith, the Bible does not say you are in one or other, but are in BOTH, based upon being 'saved!"

I've tried to make sense of this but find that you're still incoherent in your comprehension of the text. Is it possible that you could even once, ONE time, articulate and build your case from scripture?

Instead of your typical knee jerk regurgitation, you could have actually read the essay and made some sense.

 

[Yeshua1]

I've tried to make sense of this but find that you're still incoherent in your comprehension of the text. Is it possible that you could even once, ONE time, articulate and build your case from scripture?

Instead of your typical knee jerk regurgitation, you could have actually read the essay and made some sense.

Do yuo hold one can be in the Kingdom, and yet not be saved as in eternal?

 

[kyredneck]

Do yuo hold one can be in the Kingdom, and yet not be saved as in eternal?

....NO!....

JesusFan/Dechaser1/Yeshua1 you're still incoherent with this question, it makes no sense. Read the essay, a third grader could comprehend it, it will at the least help you to make sense with your criticisms of the doctrine.

 

[DHK]

Now, of course, you're chasing a rabbit--away from the original discussion. However, you are still incorrect.

Abram was called while he was in Haran. He had already been brought out of Ur (which God Himself claimed was His doing). But, the text here is quite clear: God came to Abram while he was in Haran and the promises were given then, not before. Thus, Abraham is called and given the promise before his faith is counted as righteousness, which is the point of the discussion.

Of course, if you read Acts 7, Stephen says that God called Abram from Mesopotamia, which would be Ur, not Haran. But, Stephen gets the years of Terah differently than the text in Genesis. It is very likely that Stephen is referencing tradition, perhaps Talmudic tradition, perhaps the Samaritan tradition, perhaps the Pharisaical tradition, not the text itself. The point of Stephen's speech is to recount Israelite history and it is done "loosely" in some areas and he is very selective, simply giving highlights.

But, the thrust of Stephen's speech, as well as God's "speech" in Genesis 15 is the same: God called Abraham; God moved Abraham. And, it must be noted, all this moving was done before Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness.

The Archangel

Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

If God said it, don't you think we should believe it and not attribute it to Pharasaical tradition.
Abraham believed God. He left Ur of Chaldees because of that faith, not because of the subsequent promises given to him. What you are doing is attributing a religion of works to Abraham instead of justification by faith.