Bought and Then Redeemed!

[AustinC]

I see yet another off topic post addressing me personally.
Did God choose Abraham for salvation before Abraham believed in God? Nope. God made a promise to Abram, and then, wait for it, "So Abram went." Thus He believed and trusted in God's promise when first mentioned.
Is it "my assertion" that we are saved by grace through faith, thus our pre-existing faith is utilized by God for salvation? Nope just read Ephesians 2:8, or Galatians 3:14, or Galatians 3:26 or on and on.

God chose Abraham before he believed. To deny this is to openly deny the book of Genesis.
*Genesis 12:1-4*
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

Van, that promise to Abraham is God showing us that God chose Abraham! Honestly, how you deny God's choice before Abraham believed is beyond ludicrous.

You have openly stated, and I quote, "the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them"
So, either you believe that or you deny it. Which one is it, Van?

 

[Van]

God chose Abraham before he believed. To deny this is to openly deny the book of Genesis.
*Genesis 12:1-4*
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

Van, that promise to Abraham is God showing us that God chose Abraham! Honestly, how you deny God's choice before Abraham believed is beyond ludicrous.

You have openly stated, and I quote, "the lost have their faith credited as righteous faith before God chooses them"
So, either you believe that or you deny it. Which one is it, Van?

God chose Abraham because Abraham believed. To deny this is to openly deny the book of Genesis. Why does your quote read, "So Abram went" if he did not believe God? Folks no answer will be forthcoming.

 

[AustinC]

God chose Abraham because Abraham believed. To deny this is to openly deny the book of Genesis. Why does your quote read, "So Abram went" if he did not believe God? Folks no answer will be forthcoming.

I bolded in red your wrong statement.
Read the account in Genesis, Van. God chose Abraham before Abraham ever believed. God promised Abraham before Abraham ever acted (Genesis 12).

Let's read it. Ask yourself who speaks first and initiates the blessing and covenant. Ask if God ever commends Abraham for having a previous faith that God found righteous.

*Genesis 12:1-4*
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

@Van, scripture proves you are wrong. Read it and acknowledge your error.

 

[Van]

I bolded in red your wrong statement.
Read the account in Genesis, Van. God chose Abraham before Abraham ever believed. God promised Abraham before Abraham ever acted (Genesis 12).
SNIP

God chose Abraham because Abraham believed. To deny this is to openly deny the book of Genesis. Why does your quote read, "So Abram went" if he did not believe God? Folks no answer will be forthcoming.

To claim God did not know Abraham's heart, and thus did not chose a person well suited is dubious.

 

[AustinC]

God chose Abraham because Abraham believed. To deny this is to openly deny the book of Genesis. Why does your quote read, "So Abram went" if he did not believe God? Folks no answer will be forthcoming.

To claim God did not know Abraham's heart, and thus did not chose a person well suited is dubious.

This the 2nd time you have openly gone against Genesis 12,even after I proved your assertion wrong from the text.

What you are claiming is merited salvation, which is anathema to God. Your teaching is utterly against the God of the Bible, Van. Completely wrong and unsupported by any scripture. God chose Abram without Abram ever having to prove himself righteous first.

Everyone can see that you "snipped" God's word when making your assertion. Why do you hate God's word so much that you snipped it rather than address it?

 

[Van]

This the 2nd time you have openly gone against Genesis 12,even after I proved your assertion wrong from the text.

What you are claiming is merited salvation, which is anathema to God. Your teaching is utterly against the God of the Bible, Van. Completely wrong and unsupported by any scripture. God chose Abram without Abram ever having to prove himself righteous first.

Everyone can see that you "snipped" God's word when making your assertion. Why do you hate God's word so much that you snipped it rather than address it?

Endless nonsense is the core of this post.
1) Salvation is not ever warranted, so this fiction writer says the opposite.
2) Taint so claims with no specifics, such as "utterly against the God of the Bible. This sort of argument reflects desperation.
3) Did Abram have to prove himself righteous? No one made that claim. So more fictitious strawman nonsense.
4) Does removing non-germane and repeatedly posted verbiage indicate a hatred of speaking clearly as God desires? Nope

 

[AustinC]

Endless nonsense is the core of this post.
1) Salvation is not ever warranted, so this fiction writer says the opposite.
2) Taint so claims with no specifics, such as "utterly against the God of the Bible. This sort of argument reflects desperation.
3) Did Abram have to prove himself righteous? No one made that claim. So more fictitious strawman nonsense.
4) Does removing non-germane and repeatedly posted verbiage indicate a hatred of speaking clearly as God desires? Nope

You claim that salvation isn't warranted, yet you tell us that it is the righteous faith of an unbeliever that God counts as righteousness before God chooses him.

Now, let's see you try to spin out of your twist cone you have created.

No doubt you'll play the "taint so" card to dismiss the multiple times you have been openly quoted. Your untruths are tiresome, Van.

 

[Van]

You claim that salvation isn't warranted, yet you tell us that it is the righteous faith of an unbeliever that God counts as righteousness before God chooses him.

Now, let's see you try to spin out of your twist cone you have created.

No doubt you'll play the "taint so" card to dismiss the multiple times you have been openly quoted. Your untruths are tiresome, Van.

Folks, notice the lack of a quote where I say, "The righteous faith of an unbeliever?" That is because AustinC made up that fiction to create a strawman argument. The advocates of their fallacy use worldly methods to defend bogus views.

What did I actually say? God credits as righteous faith the filthy rag worthless faith of some unsaved believers, per Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, here's what Paul is explicitly saying:
1) God saved you by grace alone. This is the cause of it all.
2) God gave you faith, as a gift, to believe. So, it is through faith that you believe.

Thus, we are saved by grace (cause) through faith (effect). Paul really wants you to grasp this so he adds "and that not of yourselves (you didn't cause it by exerting your own faith) it is a gift of God (faith is a gift) so you cannot boast."

Paul is metaphorically hitting you over the head with a Spiritual mallet to tell you that God saves you before you ever respond back to him.

Faith is not removed. Faith is placed as an effect. But you are putting faith as a cause, which Paul rejects and therefore I do as well.

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered “that” - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word “faith” - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one. Barnes

Ephesians 2:8 It is by this surpassingly rich grace of God, then, that salvation is secured for men and women. [The article in τῇ γὰρ χάριτι ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι points back to the χάρις already mentioned in Ephesians 2:5 and Ephesians 2:7.] As in v. 5, “you have been saved” is equivalent to “you have been justified.” What Paul says here about salvation he says elsewhere about justification, which is freely bestowed by God’s grace (Romans 3:24) and received “not on the ground of legal works but through faith in Jesus Christ” (Galatians 2:16). “Through faith” here implies Jesus Christ as the object of that faith, as he is explicitly its object in Galatians 2:16 and Romans 3:22, Romans 3:26 [That is to say, διὰ πίστεως here has the same force as the fuller διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ in Gal_2:16, where Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is objective genitive (see F. F. Bruce, Galatians, pp 138-39). Cf. p. 322, n. 70.]
The New International Commentary on the New Testament

 

[AustinC]

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered “that” - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word “faith” - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one. Barnes

Ephesians 2:8 It is by this surpassingly rich grace of God, then, that salvation is secured for men and women. [The article in τῇ γὰρ χάριτι ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι points back to the χάρις already mentioned in Ephesians 2:5 and Ephesians 2:7.] As in v. 5, “you have been saved” is equivalent to “you have been justified.” What Paul says here about salvation he says elsewhere about justification, which is freely bestowed by God’s grace (Romans 3:24) and received “not on the ground of legal works but through faith in Jesus Christ” (Galatians 2:16). “Through faith” here implies Jesus Christ as the object of that faith, as he is explicitly its object in Galatians 2:16 and Romans 3:22, Romans 3:26 [That is to say, διὰ πίστεως here has the same force as the fuller διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ in Gal_2:16, where Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is objective genitive (see F. F. Bruce, Galatians, pp 138-39). Cf. p. 322, n. 70.]
The New International Commentary on the New Testament

Salvation does not come from ourselves...nor does faith come from ourselves. If either of these came from ourselves we would have cause for boasting. But they don't come from us.
God saved us due to no merit of our own.
God gave us faith due to no merit of our own.
You see, Sliverhair, it's all God's good and gracious work and nothing of ourselves. We have nothing to boast about.

So, stop pimping man as the cause agent.

 

[AustinC]

Folks, notice the lack of a quote where I say, "The righteous faith of an unbeliever?" That is because AustinC made up that fiction to create a strawman argument. The advocates of their fallacy use worldly methods to defend bogus views.

What did I actually say? God credits as righteous faith the filthy rag worthless faith of some unsaved believers, per Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.

Folks, just read this thread and make up your own minds. Van has told you that God declared man's faith to be righteous before God ever chose that man for salvation. I have quoted what Van said on many occasions. I have quoted scripture on many occasions. Go back and see how Can has "snipped" Bible passages and declared that those verses were "off topic" or not of any value.
You be the judge. If you want a merit based salvation, you can follow Van's teaching

 

[Silverhair]

Salvation does not come from ourselves...nor does faith come from ourselves. If either of these came from ourselves we would have cause for boasting. But they don't come from us.
God saved us due to no merit of our own.
God gave us faith due to no merit of our own.
You see, Sliverhair, it's all God's good and gracious work and nothing of ourselves. We have nothing to boast about.

So, stop pimping man as the cause agent.

You just like to disagree with scripture and various bible scholars but we should all listen to you because you are just so smart and know better than everyone else. Nah don't think so. You have shown that you are to illogical.

Salvation results from two things: grace and faith. So what is the role that each plays? The answer is found in the prepositions “by” and “through.” Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith...
Who saves us? God saves us. How, by his grace. So what, then, is the role of faith? The key preposition for faith G4102 is “through," G1223 which refers to the means or instrumentality by which we are saved {because of, for this reason}.
We are saved by God’s grace (grace is the ground and agency of our salvation) through faith, which is the reason we receive the gift of salvation. Our faith is viewed as that way by which God’s gracious gift of salvation is received — because of our faith.
We hear the gospel, we believe {verb G4100} the gospel, we place our faith {noun G4102} in Christ Jesus, God saves us. cf Eph_1:13

I agree that salvation does not come from us it is all of God and the reason that He saves a person is because they believe in His son. John 3:18 You do not have to believe me but you should believe Christ Jesus.
If God in his sovereignty chooses to make faith the condition whereby the atonement is applied, then who are you, O man, to say otherwise?

You seem to have a blind spot in regard to faith. As many times as you have been shown that faith is not meritorious nor a work you still hold to that idea.
It’s inconceivable to me that some people would say that faith G4102 is the equivalent of works,G2041 when God’s Word plainly makes a distinction between the two (Romans 3:20-23; Romans 3:27-28; Romans 3:29-31;Romans 4:5 Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:2; Galatians 3:5-6). Scripture clearly teaches that faith and works are polar opposites. I find it difficult to believe that there is a debate about this at all. That the two are not the same should be obvious.

 

[AustinC]

You just like to disagree with scripture and various bible scholars but we should all listen to you because you are just so smart and know better than everyone else. Nah don't think so. You have shown that you are to illogical.

Salvation results from two things: grace and faith. So what is the role that each plays? The answer is found in the prepositions “by” and “through.” Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith...
Who saves us? God saves us. How, by his grace. So what, then, is the role of faith? The key preposition for faith G4102 is “through," G1223 which refers to the means or instrumentality by which we are saved {because of, for this reason}.
We are saved by God’s grace (grace is the ground and agency of our salvation) through faith, which is the reason we receive the gift of salvation. Our faith is viewed as that way by which God’s gracious gift of salvation is received — because of our faith.
We hear the gospel, we believe {verb G4100} the gospel, we place our faith {noun G4102} in Christ Jesus, God saves us. cf Eph_1:13

I agree that salvation does not come from us it is all of God and the reason that He saves a person is because they believe in His son. John 3:18 You do not have to believe me but you should believe Christ Jesus.
If God in his sovereignty chooses to make faith the condition whereby the atonement is applied, then who are you, O man, to say otherwise?

You seem to have a blind spot in regard to faith. As many times as you have been shown that faith is not meritorious nor a work you still hold to that idea.
It’s inconceivable to me that some people would say that faith G4102 is the equivalent of works,G2041 when God’s Word plainly makes a distinction between the two (Romans 3:20-23; Romans 3:27-28; Romans 3:29-31;Romans 4:5 Galatians 2:16; Galatians 3:2; Galatians 3:5-6). Scripture clearly teaches that faith and works are polar opposites. I find it difficult to believe that there is a debate about this at all. That the two are not the same should be obvious.

I disagree with Sliverhair and his interpretation of scripture. I provide clear reasons and quote Bible passages in support. This seems to bother you.

You say "salvation results from two things: grace and faith."
You add: We are saved by God’s grace (grace is the ground and agency of our salvation) through faith, which is the reason we receive the gift of salvation.

Yet, you completely ignore what scripture says before this:
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

It's all God, Sliverhair.

"Through faith" is the effect of God's causing us to graciously be made alive. Faith is a gift.

Sliverhair, many, many, people understand that faith is a gift from God, so I am hardly alone in this understanding. These believers are Reformed.

There are also many who believe their faith cooperated with God's grace to save them. These believers are a product of the RCC, which teaches salvation by grace plus works, justification by faith plus works.

There is a fundamental difference in interpretation of God's word. We will not agree and it is pointless for us to interact since you continue to promote humanism and I continue to promote the full Supremacy of God.

 

[Van]

Folks, just read this thread and make up your own minds. Van has told you that God declared man's faith to be righteous before God ever chose that man for salvation. I have quoted what Van said on many occasions. I have quoted scripture on many occasions. Go back and see how Can has "snipped" Bible passages and declared that those verses were "off topic" or not of any value.
You be the judge. If you want a merit based salvation, you can follow Van's teaching

The old, I have quoted, but no actual quote. Good grief.

Folks, notice the lack of a quote where I say, "The righteous faith of an unbeliever?" That is because AustinC made up that fiction to create a strawman argument. The advocates of their fallacy use worldly methods to defend bogus views.

What did I actually say? God credits as righteous faith the filthy rag worthless faith of some unsaved believers, per Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.

 

[Silverhair]

I disagree with Sliverhair and his interpretation of scripture. I provide clear reasons and quote Bible passages in support. This seems to bother you.

You say "salvation results from two things: grace and faith."
You add: We are saved by God’s grace (grace is the ground and agency of our salvation) through faith, which is the reason we receive the gift of salvation.

Yet, you completely ignore what scripture says before this:
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

It's all God, Sliverhair.

"Through faith" is the effect of God's causing us to graciously be made alive. Faith is a gift.

Sliverhair, many, many, people understand that faith is a gift from God, so I am hardly alone in this understanding. These believers are Reformed.

There are also many who believe their faith cooperated with God's grace to save them. These believers are a product of the RCC, which teaches salvation by grace plus works, justification by faith plus works.

There is a fundamental difference in interpretation of God's word. We will not agree and it is pointless for us to interact since you continue to promote humanism and I continue to promote the full Supremacy of God.

Austin you keep claiming to trust in the sovereign God and yet you fail to trust what He has said via His written word. Why is that?
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.

What Paul says here is clear. The Gospel is preached, people hear it, believe it, call on God and are saved. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the Reformed-Calvinist scenario.

You continue to struggle with the truth of scripture and seem to trust in a Gnostic philosophy that was brought into the church by Augustine and carried on by Calvin and the reformers.

There is a vast difference between God giving us the capacity for faith (freeing our will), and causing us to believe. This is a biblical concept that you do not seem to be able to grasp.

God is sovereign over his sovereignty.
So for you to say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you keep claiming to trust in the sovereign God and yet you fail to trust what He has said via His written word. Why is that?
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.

What Paul says here is clear. The Gospel is preached, people hear it, believe it, call on God and are saved. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the Reformed-Calvinist scenario.

You continue to struggle with the truth of scripture and seem to trust in a Gnostic philosophy that was brought into the church by Augustine and carried on by Calvin and the reformers.

There is a vast difference between God giving us the capacity for faith (freeing our will), and causing us to believe. This is a biblical concept that you do not seem to be able to grasp.

God is sovereign over his sovereignty.
So for you to say that God can’t is, ironically, to deny God’s sovereignty.

Sliverhair, we have gone over this multiple times. I have gone through the passage with you, step by step, and you still demand that humans receive glory.
Romans 10 supports my position, as does the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
You will stand before our King and explain to Him why you tried to take away from His glory and give it to yourself.

 

[Silverhair]

Sliverhair, we have gone over this multiple times. I have gone through the passage with you, step by step, and you still demand that humans receive glory.
Romans 10 supports my position, as does the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
You will stand before our King and explain to Him why you tried to take away from His glory and give it to yourself.

Funny how when I quote scripture supporting what I say you call that taking glory from God which the text clearly does not do. Since you come across as a determinist I can only conclude that God has blinded you to the truth of His word for some reason or perhaps it is as Calvin said so that you will feel a greater since of guilt and loss when the truth does shine through.

 

[AustinC]

I don't deny scripture. I state that your interpretation is humanistic and it attempts to downplay God and lift up man. You have been pushing your humanism for some time now Sliverhair.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't deny scripture. I state that your interpretation is humanistic and it attempts to downplay God and lift up man. You have been pushing your humanism for some time now Sliverhair.

So you are now calling scripture humanism. You have a very strange view of scripture. But it is your so I will leave you to it.

 

[AustinC]

So you are now calling scripture humanism. You have a very strange view of scripture. But it is your so I will leave you to it.

Nope. You're reading comprehension is awful, Sliverhair.
I have said, often, that your interpretation is humanism. You are the problem, not God. I stand against your interpretation, Sliverhair, not God.