Bought versus Redeemed

[Van]

Absolutely.
.

1) Recall this poster questioned my presentation of the Greek as reflected in published views of Greek scholars?
2) The textual variant of Jude 4 mentioned by Martin, is reflected in later manuscripts and not in the earlier and better witnesses. Thus Jude 4 demonstrates the Master is God the Son. And since the same idea, denying the Master is also expressed in 2 Peter 2:1, the conclusion must be that the Master refers to Christ.
3) Does every other "appearance of despotes in the N.T. refer to human masters or God the Father? Nope, 2 Peter 2:1 and Jude 1:4 total more than one. My count is 4 usages referring to humans, 4 usages referring to God the Father, and 2 usages referring to God the Son.

This person who likes to question of the qualifications of others, is questioning that Christ is presented as God in Jude 1:4
I kid you not.

 

[Silverhair]

Absolutely.

The vast majority of the extant MSS have the textual variant. Those who favour the Critical Text will favour one view; those who (like me) favour the Majority or Byzantine text, the other. But we shall have to agree to disagree.

Nice begging of the question! Even if we allow Jude 1:4 as referring to Christ, which is uncertain, it has no bearing upon 2 Peter 2:1.
This leads us to the question of Deuteronomy 32:6. The question is whether qanah (7069) means 'Buy' or 'create' in that verse? I have no knowledge of Hebrew, but I can read Vine's Expository Dictionary as well as Van, and it is clear that the word can mean either. The KJV, NKJV and NASB have 'buy'; the "agenda-driven" ESV and NIV have 'create.' I will simply observe that the only other appearance of qanah in Deuteronomy is in 28:68, where it can only mean 'buy.' Also, it seems rather likely that 2 Peter 2:1 is alluding to the verse and whether it means 'buy' or 'create' there, it can only be God the Father rather than the Son who is being referenced.

But more important than any of this is that in Van's misunderstanding of salvation, the cross, to him, is not the pivotal thing. Christ, he says, died for everyone without exception, and therefore His sufferings and death have no direct bearing on who is saved. But Paul declares, '... I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified' (1 Cor. 2:2). For him, Christ's death was absolutely centre stage.

I am still waiting for Van's answer concerning the New Covenant.

That is not what the Bible says. This is what the Bible says:
'For this is the covenant that I shall make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I shall be their God and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbour, and none his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’ (Heb. 8:10-12).
If the new covenant is made with 'humanity' then there can be no objection to baptizing infants into it and we should all become Presbyterians. But as you can see by the parts of the quotation that I have underlined, the new covenant is made with those who have God's righteous laws written on their minds and hearts, who know God and whose sins God has forgiven. The Mosaic covenant was made with the physical descendants of Abraham (via Isaac); the new covenant was made with the spiritual descendants of Abraham (Galatians 3:7, 26-29. Contrast Exodus 19:5-6 with 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Martin I agree that for Paul the cross was central but as he pointed out if Christ had not risen then what value would His death have been.
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

 

[Van]

Think about the thief taken to paradise on the day Christ died. Had the bodily resurrection of Jesus occurred? Nope, So what is all this malarkey about the resurrection being necessary to provide forgiveness? The resurrection provides evidence that Christ's promises were valid, thus our faith is His promises has value and is not worthless.

Redemption occurs when God transfers an individual's spirit into Christ's spiritual body where the individual undergoes the washing of regeneration, and arises in Christ a new creation, born of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Think about the thief taken to paradise on the day Christ died. Had the bodily resurrection of Jesus occurred? Nope, So what is all this malarkey about the resurrection being necessary to provide forgiveness? The resurrection provides evidence that Christ's promises were valid, thus our faith is His promises has value and is not worthless.

Redemption occurs when God transfers an individual's spirit into Christ's spiritual body where the individual undergoes the washing of regeneration, and arises in Christ a new creation, born of God.

OK so you don't agree with scripture. Then why would the Holy Spirit have put it
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
in the bible if it was not important?

 

[Van]

OK so you don't agree with scripture. Then why would the Holy Spirit have put it
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
in the bible if it was not important?

I do not agree with your "salvation can be lost" view of scripture.
The resurrection provides evidence that Christ's promises were valid, thus our faith is His promises has value and is not worthless.
Did you address how the thief entered paradise before Christ's bodily resurrection? Nope.

 

[Van]

In 1 Corinthians 6:20 and 1 Corinthians 7:23 deliverance into salvation was purchased. Ditto for Revelation 14:3-4. However, in 2 Peter 2:1, purchasing the means of salvation for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved is in view.

Thus bought can refer to an individual's deliverance into salvation or providing the meaning of salvation for humanity by making the ransom payment.

 

[AustinC]

In 1 Corinthians 6:20 and 1 Corinthians 7:23 deliverance into salvation was purchased. Ditto for Revelation 14:3-4. However, in 2 Peter 2:1, purchasing the means of salvation for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved is in view.

Thus bought can refer to an individual's deliverance into salvation or providing the meaning of salvation for humanity by making the ransom payment.

Where does God tell us that Jesus purchased "the means to" salvation or deliverance "into" salvation?
There is no text in all of scripture that says such a thing.
Certainly 2 Peter 2:1 does not say such a thing.

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Van, you have created a gospel and salvation not taught by God in the Bible. The phraseology you choose, in what I quote directly from you, is found nowhere in the Bible.

Honestly, you make Jesus and His atonement secondary to a human response.
You teach that Jesus opens the door, but his work is empty of any value if a human does not walk through the door. Your theology is just appalling to me. It is baseless in all of Scripture.

 

[Van]

Where does God tell us that Jesus purchased "the means to" salvation or deliverance "into" salvation?

1 John 2:2

 

[RipponRedeaux]

1 John 2:2

Nope. The text says nothing about Jesus purchasing the means of salvation.

 

[Van]

Nope. The text says nothing about Jesus purchasing the means of salvation.

Yet another "taint so" post offering no alternative.

1 John 2:2 NASB footnote: means of reconciliation

1 John 2:2 (NASB as footnoted)
and He Himself is the means of reconciliation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.