Brick wall for Rapturists

[Ray Berrian]

Christopher,

After the taking of the church to Heaven--the church will be evaluated at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven. On earth there will be seven years of the Great Tribulation. After this Christ will return from Heaven with His saints [Rev. 19] and will destroy His enemies. At this point in time the church having returned to earth will inhabit the land of Israel where Christ will sit on His theocratic throne in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14] The martyrs who died during the Great Tribulation will be with Christ coming from Heaven at the Second Coming of Christ. Those people sinners and saints who have not been beheaded during the Great Tribulation will enter into that 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ. The people of the nations of the world will be commanded to come and worship Christ in Jerusalem. Some will rebel as noted in Zechariah 14 such as the land of Egypt who, are a part of other world religions. Judgment will be brought to bare as noted also in Zechariah. Hope this answers your question.

After the 1,000 reign of Christ there will be the resurrection of all the lost from all ages as noted in Rev. 20:5. Then comes the gathering together of all nations against Israel vs.8 and then the evaporating of the 'heavens and the earth.' as noted in II Peter 3:10. Then the Great White Throne Judgment and the beginning of the 'new heaven and the new earth and eternity.

Those of us who know Jesus have received everlasting life when we believed and have nothing but a wonderful eternity ahead, in Heaven then in the Kingdom Age {Millenimum} and into the 'new heaven and the new earth'--eternity.

Respectfully submitted,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Christopher]

You post Scripture to "prove" your view, but I'm not seeing the point you're trying to prove. If there is a rapture of the church before a seven-year Great Tribulation and a 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth...

WHY IS THERE NO CLEAR TEACHING OF THIS IN SCRIPTURE.

What I'm seeing is scripture here and there jumbled together.

Here's what I mean...

[Matt. 21:35] And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

[Luk. 6:31] ...do ye also to them likewise.

See what I mean? Anyone can take portions of scripture without taking into account the whole context of the passage and prove something.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
Anyone can take portions of scripture without taking into account the whole context of the passage and prove something.

This is precisely why I would argue for a pretribulational rapture of the church ... becuase when the whole of Scripture is taken together, it seems clearly taught.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Christopher,

Maybe you ought to investigated the WHY will there be the rapture, the Great Tribulation and the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. A book by the former professor - - Walvoord or Ryrie can help you with your floundering in these verses and will explain the WHY behind God's grand scheme for the future.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Chris Temple]

Better yet, Christopher, stick with good theologians like, Ladd, Hoekema, Gentry, Spurgeon, Hodge, Boettner, Strimple, and Sproul, which will keep you from "floundering" in dispensational error!

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Christopher:
Excuse me, but from what I know about English there can only be one "last" day or else it could not be called the last day. In other words, there are, in fact, 2 last days according to you.

Quite right Christopher. The dispensationalist's "plain literal meaning", goes out the window when speaking of the last day (there are more than one), the Second Coming (there are more than one), etc. This is necessary in order to accomodate their a priori Jewish primacy position.

 

[Christopher]

On earth there will be seven years of the Great Tribulation. After this Christ will return from Heaven with His saints [Rev. 19] and will destroy His enemies.

If Jesus destroys His enemies at His second coming, who will be left to populate the earth during the reign of Christ besides the saints? Another problem then arises because if only the saints are reigning on the earth with Christ, what will be the purpose of releasing Satan from his prison to deceive the nations? Jesus said the elect could not be decieved [Matt. 24:24].

What will happen to the unglorified saints who die during this period of time? According to Premillennialism, only the unbelievers are raised at the "second resurrection." What will become of the unglorifed saints who die? When will they be raised?

Where does the Bible say those saints who die during the "Millennium" are instantaneously given a glorfied body? Since Larry wants to say I read too much into Scripture, don't say the Bible doesn't come right out and say it because it's implied, for Larry told me that when Jesus said "all who are in graves" will be raised, he insists that it doesn't mean all who were ever in the graves. That is such an empty statement because it's common sense that if ALL WHO ARE IN THE GRAVES are going to be raised it would mean all who were ever in the graves...that is, unless some have already been raised (those that raised when Jesus did and walked around the town). Other than those, no others have been raised!!!!! They're still there unless we're talking about "The Night of the Living Mummies" or some junk like that.

[ March 25, 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]

 

[Eric B]

There will come a time when ALL who are in the graves will come forth, both righteous and wicked...ONE RESURRECTION. According to your theory, the righteous and wicked will not be resurrected at the same time but in two separate resurrections.

This does not necessarily say they will both be at the same exact time. Just as with the term "Day of the Lord", the focus is "the end"; just like the NT spoke of "the last days", yet this is stretched out over time, and we're are still here 2000 years later. The Revelation passage is clear about the resurrection of the righteous, 1000 years, then resurrection of the unrighteous. Daniel simply mentions resurrection of both groups. We must interpret less explicit passages in light of the clear ones. Keep in mind, that the prophecies of Daniel and the rest of the OT gave a glimpse that was further expanded upon in the NT. Recall that the Jews only understood one coming of the Messiah, but when He came, He revealed there were really two. They too could try to pull scriptures suggesting that His kingdom would be established at the same time as His [first] coming. The same principle is at work here.

If Jesus destroys His enemies at His second coming, who will be left to populate the earth during the reign of Christ besides the saints? Another problem then arises because if only the saints are reigning on the earth with Christ, what will be the purpose of releasing Satan from his prison to deceive the nations? Jesus said the elect could not be decieved [Matt. 24:24].

It is generally believed there may be some survivors among the unsaved. Perhaps "His enemies" means primarily the armies and governments, but not necesarily every unsaved person. So they will be in the Millennium, and still have a fleshy fallen nature, but not have Satan deceiving them, but instead Christ ruling them with a rod of iron. They therefore won't be as unruly and desperately wicked as today's unregenerate who are blinded by Satan, but still need to be forced to obey God.
Then at the end, Satan will be released, and those who have not repented will be deceived by him leading to one final rebellion.

What will happen to the unglorified saints who die during this period of time? According to Premillennialism, only the unbelievers are raised at the "second resurrection." What will become of the unglorifed saints who die? When will they be raised?
Where does the Bible say those saints who die during the "Millennium" are instantaneously given a glorfied body?

That is a conclusion drawn from the rest of the revelation. If the righteous are given glorified bodies at the first resurrection, then if any of those carnal people after that resurrection gets saved, they must be glorified at death. Yes, the scripture is very fuzzy or unclear on certain points like these details of the Millennium (the point is Christ and our future with Him), so we can only draw certain conclusions, as long as they support/don't contradict clearer scriptures (such as the two distinct resurrections).

 

[Ray Berrian]

Christopher,

The Apostle John gives a very clear view of end times events. There are no piling of confused verses as one studies the Book of Revelation.

Revelation chapters 1-3 deals with the Seven Churches of the first century. Please, note that after chapter 3 there is no more heard about the church. The reason is that in chapter 4 suggests that the church is in Heaven because of I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15:51-58. Why? Because the 24 Elders are already there worshiping Christ on His regal throne. Again, after chapter three the church is never, never referred to again in the end times events.

Revelation chapter 4 opens to John the view of Heaven and shows ‘ . . . . things which must be
hereafter.' What does John mean by this. After the church age is completed John gets to see the elders in Heaven and God's judgments that will be poured out on the lost world during the Great Tribulation on this present earth.

Revelation 5 reveals to John that only Christ can break the seals that will be opened during the Great Tribulation.

Revelation chapters 6-16 deals with the seal, trumpet, bowl, and vial judgments that will be released during the Great Tribulation Period.

Revelation 17-20 offers a detailed view of the consummation of the age. Chapter 17 is Apostate Christendom {that continues to play church after the raptured true church is in Heaven}; Chapter 18 portrays the nations of the world that will fall apart during the Great Tribulation {bringing about a financial collapse}.

Revelation chapter 19 is Christ's Second Coming with His church with Him.

Revelation 20 deals with God binding Satan at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the thousand year Messianic reign on this earth. In Rev. 20:4 we learn that the martyred saints of the Great Tribulation live with Christ on the earth during the just mentioned era of time. In Rev. 20:6 we learn that the saints have experienced the ‘first resurrection' and the lost will experience the ‘second death.' In Revelation 20:7 Satan will be released from ‘the bottomless pit' and will go out to deceive the world once again and will gather the nations to war against Jerusalem as noted in vs. 9 & 10. In vs. 10--the Unholy Trinity--the Devil, the beast-meaning the antichrist, and the false prophet--the false teacher who will have been saying that the antichrist is actually Christ, will be cast into the Lake of Fire forever by Almighty God. In Revelation 20:11 will be the dissolution of the present ‘heavens (our atmosphere) and the earth' {because ‘there was no place found for the wicked to stand} note also, II Peter 3:10. In Revelation 20:11-15 is the judgment of all lost souls. Revelation 21:1 is the revealing of the ‘new heaven and the new earth.' Why? Because in II Peter 3:10 God destroys this present earth. Revelation 21 also deals with ‘that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven' which will be situated and stabilized for our enjoyment. There will be no need for a temple because the Triune God will be the temple of it. vs.22. Revelation 22 is reminding us that no sinners will be a part of this new and wonderful era, only all the people of God. Then eternity. In verse 17 God the Holy Spirit, the Bride meaning (all saints from all ages of time) for the last time, before the Canon is closed, invites the lost to partake of everlasting life through belief in the Son.

This is the basic order of the last times events.

Respectfully,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Christopher]

Where are the saints going to spend eternity, in heaven or in the New Jerusalem on earth? If the saints are going to finally live in heaven, what is the purpose of the New Jerusalem if it's going to be destroyed?

By His Grace, Christopher †

P.S. - These are not questions to try to prove a point, but I'm honestly in the dark about this issue. Just questions for my knowledge...

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by Christopher:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Last Day is not the last day of all human history; it is the Last Day for the church who will be raptured/taken into Heaven at His coming. --Ray

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [John 6:44]

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. [John 12:48]

According to these two verses, the same day the believers are raised the unbelievers are judged.

By His grace, Christopher †</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with what you said….

In that same line of thinking, when a man chooses God, he receives the seal of God upon his forehead... If he rejects God, he receives the mark of the beast.... Imagine that, the battle of Armageddon being fought everyday between the flesh and the spirit...... Gary

 

[Graceforever]

BTW, my name is Gary and I’ve been following Jesus for 24 years…. I enjoy reading all the thoughts of so many Christians….

 

[tyndale1946]

Gary that was an interesting spiritual thought and I will gladly add that to my collection... Can't argue with that and it backs up this scripture from Paul in Romans refering to Psalms.

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter... and this one also...

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin... Brother Glen

[ March 26, 2002, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chris Temple:
Quite right Christopher. The dispensationalist's "plain literal meaning", goes out the window when speaking of the last day (there are more than one), the Second Coming (there are more than one), etc. This is necessary in order to accomodate their a priori Jewish primacy position.

Chris, you continue to disappoint me with you continued misunderstanding of these issues and attribution of error to a solid exegetical position. To illustrate, The "a priori Jewish primacy" is no a priori at all. It is clear that, while you continue to protest vehemently to the contrary, you have no clue about dispensationalism. The Jewish primacy position stems from the nature of language. The nature of language is the a priori, not the Jewish primacy.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
If Jesus destroys His enemies at His second coming, who will be left to populate the earth during the reign of Christ besides the saints?

No one.

Another problem then arises because if only the saints are reigning on the earth with Christ, what will be the purpose of releasing Satan from his prison to deceive the nations? Jesus said the elect could not be decieved [Matt. 24:24].

If you are reading along, I already addressed this. During the Millennium, the earth will be repopulated through natural procreation. It will result in an abundance of depraved babies who grow up to be depraved adults. Some will repent no doubt but others will not. It is these who do not that Satan deceives.

What will happen to the unglorified saints who die during this period of time?

They will probably be in the category of OT saints who will not be raised until after the resurrection.

Where does the Bible say those saints who die during the "Millennium" are instantaneously given a glorfied body?

Nowhere that I am aware of. Is there someone who takes this position?

...Larry told me that when Jesus said "all who are in graves" will be raised, he insists that it doesn't mean all who were ever in the graves. That is such an empty statement because it's common sense that if ALL WHO ARE IN THE GRAVES are going to be raised it would mean all who were ever in the graves...that is, unless some have already been raised (those that raised when Jesus did and walked around the town). Other than those, no others have been raised!!!!! They're still there unless we're talking about "The Night of the Living Mummies" or some junk like that.

Not sure why this is here. This is very poor reasoning if it is meant to be serious.

My point is that you discounted the possibility of a resurrection between now and John 5:24. Yet you, on the basis of clear Scripture, must admit at least two resurrections (Rev 20 -- The came to life and reigned for a thousand years (v. 4) and the rest of dead did not come to life till after the thousand years (v. 5)). If you deny two resurrections, you are denying explicit teaching of Scripture.

If you place John 5:24 at the end of the millennium (even assuming we are living in it now), there still must be a prior resurrection. Let me turn the tables: When is that resurrection?

Again, I have no interest in descending to personal slights or subtle attacks. Let's just talk theology and Scripture here.

[ March 26, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Christopher,

Your questions are more than fair and worthy of consideration. We are only give about one full sentence on ' . . . . the new heaven and the new earth.' I never try to answer a question that I have not fully thought through myself. At this point I really don't have the answer to your good questions.

This might be too simplistic, but we will spend eternity with Christ. The New Jerusalem that comes down out of Heaven will never be destroyed. The only things that will be destroyed will be ' . . . the heavens--meaning the sky and clouds will be removed plus this present earth will be destroyed by fire. {II Peter 3:10}

After the resurrection of Christ from the dead He moved freely through walls because He was clothed in His spiritual body while on earth and befoe the ascension. Some believe that we will be able to traverse between the ' . . . new heaven and the new earth,' and perhaps to other places. I tend to agree with these people.

We are not told if we will frequent the 'new earth' or could this be the place where Christ might start a new civilization. This I think is speculative.

My regards,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Eric B]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Christopher:
If Jesus destroys His enemies at His second coming, who will be left to populate the earth during the reign of Christ besides the saints?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another problem then arises because if only the saints are reigning on the earth with Christ, what will be the purpose of releasing Satan from his prison to deceive the nations? Jesus said the elect could not be decieved [Matt. 24:24].
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are reading along, I already addressed this. During the Millennium, the earth will be repopulated through natural procreation. It will result in an abundance of depraved babies who grow up to be depraved adults.

I know you mentioned this before, but I must have missed something. If all the unregenerate are "destroyed", then where does this new generation of depraved people and "natural procreation" come from? (can't be the glorified saints). What I had heard was that some unregenerate people will survive (It is mainly the govt. systems and armies God is destroying), but you say "not one" will be left.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Eric B:
I know you mentioned this before, but I must have missed something. If all the unregenerate are "destroyed", then where does this new generation of depraved people and "natural procreation" come from? (can't be the glorified saints). What I had heard was that some unregenerate people will survive (It is mainly the govt. systems and armies God is destroying), but you say "not one" will be left.

Tribulation saints who survive the tribulation and do not have glorified bodies. They are made up of the 144,000 Jews plus some others. The church saints are the ones with glorified bodies. They are taken out before the tribulation judgment (Rev 3:10).

 

[bushprsdnt]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Tribulation saints who survive the tribulation and do not have glorified bodies. They are
made up of the 144,000 Jews plus some others. The church saints are the ones with
glorified bodies. They are taken out before the tribulation judgment (Rev 3:10). &lt;&lt;&lt;

Wow! You have it worked out to a fine point.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The church saints are the ones with glorified bodies. They are taken out before the tribulation judgment (Rev 3:10).

Rev 3:10 was originally written to the church of Philadelphia. They were not raptured. Since it is safe to assume the verse was not a false promise to them, how can we believe it is about rapture for us? I would agree that verses written to specific Christians in the past have global application throughout the ages, but surely you see my point. It seems to me it is a strange hermeneutic indeed that determines Rev 3:10 teaches a pretrib rapture.