Brief Analysis of Romans 9:11.

[percho]

I do not think Rom 9:11 has anything to do with good and evil nor with sin. It is speaking of what God does relative to the purpose of God.

according as it hath been written, 'Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'

Relative to what. To God sending his Son into the world not to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved,

That Son, God chose to come through, the younger and not the elder, the loved one and not the hated one, according to the purpose of God.

Both were sinners and both did good and evil.

 

[37818]

My post is clear, your feigned stupidity is not helpful.

The Greek word has a range of meanings, and according to Strong's, the idea refers to something that has (not) been accomplished. Thus those early in life have not collected any wrath.

Your ad hominem is noted.
You have not discussed why you think that unique plural use of the word translated must be taken in the singular to mean that children not yet born are sinless.

 

[George Antonios]

Romans 9:11, "(For the children being not yet born, neither practiced any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )"

1) Correction:

The words of God are: Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

2) Analysis:

God elected the nation of Edom to serve the nation of Israel.
That choice was not based on their works.
Paul will then take that story, wherein the election was not unto salvation but unto service, but extract from it the principle that God does not elect based on the works of the law, and prove his point that God likewise does not elect unto salvation based on one's works of the law, but, as he concludes at the end of the chapter, based on one's faith.

 

[37818]

1) Correction:

The words of God are: Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

2) Analysis:

God elected the nation of Edom to serve the nation of Israel.
That choice was not based on their works.
Paul will then take that story, wherein the election was not unto salvation but unto service, but extract from it the principle that God does not elect based on the works of the law, and prove his point that God likewise does not elect unto salvation based on one's works of the law, but, as he concludes at the end of the chapter, based on one's faith.

It seems to me you have missed the point that "neither having done" is being translated in the singular for that verb being used in the plural, πραξαντων. Not singular. But should be in the plural past tense, ". . . neither having practiced any good or evil, . . ."

 

[percho]

It seems to me you have missed the point that "neither having done" is being translated in the singular for that verb being used in the plural, πραξαντων. Not singular. But should be in the plural past tense, ". . . neither having practiced any good or evil, . . ."

Considering the LORD spoke to her after she and conceived but before she delivered, would that have had anything to do with the tense of the Greek used for these two words?

γεννηθέντων - vp Aor Pas Gen Pl m ------- This being in past tense ----- of having been generated unto


πραξάντων - Aor Act Gen Pl m --------------- this being in an ongoing tense, unto ----- (nor) of practicing

The LORD speaking of them, of having been conceived, yet, not yet brought forth (Born)

Are we conceived in sin, brought forth in iniquity, then begin to practice using the knowledge gained from Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, practicing sin?

Then it falls to this: And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose; --------- That is whether we do good or evil. Think Judas, it was going to fall to someone to betray him for it had been prophesied.

 

[SavedByGrace]

". . . practiced . . ." as opposed to merely ". . . having done . . ." Romans 9:11 does not teach they were sinless.

This shows your ignorance of the Greek language! The verb πραξαντων is used here in the aorist tense (having done), and not the present (continue to do), for starters. Every English version that I have seen, has used the word "done", and not "practiced", as you suggest, Romans 9:11 Parallel: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) The base meaning of this verb is "to do", or "to perform". It is used in Acts 26:20, for example, where it reads, "and DO works..."; and 26:26, "not DONE". A good example like the one in Romans 9:11, is found in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath DONE, whether it be good or bad.". Don't forget the negative particle used by Paul here, "μηδέ", "not even, not either". Literally, "even before the time the twins had done anything good or bad". This shows that there is a "time", when infants "do" not commit any sinful acts.

Also, you have not dealt with Isaiah 7:16, which is much clearer, "For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good". This is very clear that there is a "time", before an infant KNOWS (yâda‛) that is "distinguish", as in Jonah 4:11, "they cannot distinguish between their right hand and their left". This means that they do not know how to "distinguish", morally, what is "right", and what is "wrong"!

Your "analysis" is nothing more than your theological "spin" on what the Bible says, and shows that what you say is NOT taught in the Bible!

 

[Alan Gross]

This shows your ignorance of the Greek language! The verb πραξαντων is used here in the aorist tense (having done), and not the present (continue to do), for starters. Every English version that I have seen, has used the word "done", and not "practiced", as you suggest, Romans 9:11 Parallel: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) The base meaning of this verb is "to do", or "to perform". It is used in Acts 26:20, for example, where it reads, "and DO works..."; and 26:26, "not DONE". A good example like the one in Romans 9:11, is found in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath DONE, whether it be good or bad.". Don't forget the negative particle used by Paul here, "μηδέ", "not even, not either". Literally, "even before the time the twins had done anything good or bad". This shows that there is a "time", when infants "do" not commit any sinful acts.

Also, you have not dealt with Isaiah 7:16, which is much clearer, "For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good". This is very clear that there is a "time", before an infant KNOWS (yâda‛) that is "distinguish", as in Jonah 4:11, "they cannot distinguish between their right hand and their left". This means that they do not know how to "distinguish", morally, what is "right", and what is "wrong"!

Your "analysis" is nothing more than your theological "spin" on what the Bible says, and shows that what you say is NOT taught in the Bible!

Your "analysis" is nothing more than your theological "spin" on what the Bible says, and shows that what you say is NOT taught in the Bible!

 

[SavedByGrace]

looks like you have nowt to say!

 

[Alan Gross]

looks like you have nowt to say!

Romans 9:11 Parallel: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

 

[37818]

This shows your ignorance of the Greek language!

Your need of a use of an ad hominem shows that you are wrong.
Romans 9:11, is better to read, "(For the children being not yet born, neither of having practiced any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )" That verb πραξαντων is not only Aorist past tense, but an Active Participle in mood, currently being, and a Plural in the Genitive case. (of course I looked it up)

 

[SavedByGrace]

Your need of a use of an ad hominem shows that you are wrong.
Romans 9:11, is better to read, "(For the children being not yet born, neither of having practiced any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )" That verb πραξαντων is not only Aorist past tense, but an Active Participle in mood, currently being, and a Plural in the Genitive case. (of course I looked it up)

Participle in mood? You sure about this? You should check your Greek grammar before you post

Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

 

[37818]

Participle in mood? You sure about this? You should check your Greek grammar before you post

Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

Well the Greek grammar I used,
πραξαντων V-AAP-GPM
Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes

V-AAP-GPM
Part of speech: Verb (V)

Tense: Aorist (A)
Voice: Active (A)
Mood: Participle (P)

Case: Genitive (G)
Number: Plural (P)
Gender: Masculine (M)

Checking a second reference:
Analytical Greek New Testament,
By Barbara & Timoty Friberg
πραξαντων
VPAAGM-P
V Verb
P Participle
A Aorist
A Active
G Genetive
M Masculine
-
P Plural

 

[Van]

So on the one hand all humans are conceived as "sinners" Romans 5:19, even though they have done nothing good or bad.
So the obvious question is what is the meaning of "made sinners" if they have not sinned? A "sinner" goes into a separated from our Holy God, state, with complete inability, by their own efforts, to reunite with God. All our works of righteousness are as filthy rags.

Romans 3:23 says "all" sinned. Does the "all" refer to all humans able to sin, thus excluding the feeble-minded and those early in life that do not know their right hand from their left? I think so. OTOH, to be made sinners, must include the feeble-minded and those early in life, because that is how they were made.

Sin refers both the our thoughts or actions and the consequence God imposes. So to be "made sinners" refers, IMO, to the consequence God has imposed, corruption and separation. This can therefore apply to those who have done nothing good or evil. (Romans 9:11).

This is the only view that fits and does not conflict with all scripture.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well the Greek grammar I used,
πραξαντων V-AAP-GPM
Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes

V-AAP-GPM
Part of speech: Verb (V)

Tense: Aorist (A)
Voice: Active (A)
Mood: Participle (P)

Case: Genitive (G)
Number: Plural (P)
Gender: Masculine (M)

Checking a second reference:
Analytical Greek New Testament,
By Barbara & Timoty Friberg
πραξαντων
VPAAGM-P
V Verb
P Participle
A Aorist
A Active
G Genetive
M Masculine
-
P Plural

the "M" stands for "masculine" in gender. The voice is "active". the tense is "aorist". the case is "genetive", the "V" means that it is a verb. The "particple" are "verbal adjectives", which can indicate the action of the verb, or modify nouns., etc

 

[SavedByGrace]

So on the one hand all humans are conceived as "sinners" Romans 5:19, even though they have done nothing good or bad.
So the obvious question is what is the meaning of "made sinners" if they have not sinned? A "sinner" goes into a separated from our Holy God, state, with complete inability, by their own efforts, to reunite with God. All our works of righteousness are as filthy rags.

Romans 3:23 says "all" sinned. Does the "all" refer to all humans able to sin, thus excluding the feeble-minded and those early in life that do not know their right hand from their left? I think so. OTOH, to be made sinners, must include the feeble-minded and those early in life, because that is how they were made.

Sin refers both the our thoughts or actions and the consequence God imposes. So to be "made sinners" refers, IMO, to the consequence God has imposed, corruption and separation. This can therefore apply to those who have done nothing good or evil. (Romans 9:11).

This is the only view that fits and does not conflict with all scripture.

A "sinner" by defination is someone who has actually commited a "sin". like a "murderer" is somone who has actually "killed" someone. And an "adulterer" is someone who has actually committed "adutery". A "thief" is someone who as actually "stolen" something, etc, etc. So, how can a person be a "sinner", if they have not actually "committed" any sin? The verb πραξαντων used in Romans 9:11, is for something that is "actually done".

 

[Van]

A "sinner" by defination is someone who has actually commited a "sin". like a "murderer" is somone who has actually "killed" someone. And an "adulterer" is someone who has actually committed "adutery". A "thief" is someone who as actually "stolen" something, etc, etc. So, how can a person be a "sinner", if they have not actually "committed" any sin? The verb πραξαντων used in Romans 9:11, is for something that is "actually done".

Sorry, but no. A person made a sinner by definition as not as yet sinned. Sinning is doing something after being "made." And the verb refers to something actually NOT done in Romans 9:11.

 

[SavedByGrace]

A person made a sinner by definition as not as yet sinned

really? says who?

 

[SavedByGrace]

And the verb refers to something actually NOT done

the verb has nothing to do with this, as it is the negative particle, "μηδέ", that tells us this!

 

[Van]

really? says who?

We hold these truths as self-evident... that if you are made a tractor, you have yet to pull a trailer.

 

[Van]

the verb has nothing to do with this, as it is the negative particle, "μηδέ", that tells us this!

Give me a break, you cited the verse. And the verb in isolation is non-germane.