Brief History of Ireland

I wonder will you apply this to the Hispanics, Blacks, American Indians etc in the States. Somehow I doubt it. Nationalists (not all Catholics are) who cannot wait to live in a Celtic state need move home no more than thirty miles away to satisfy their longings. They don't. Did you ever think why? Because they are better off under British rule - plain and simple.

Dr. Bob is right - "Balkanizing the world (or even the island) is NOT the answer. "

 

Maybe California should be balkanised?

 

As laid out by me above, the history of British governments' dealing with Irish Nationalists, moderate or extreme, has been a case of 'too little, too late', and that has been reflected in the recent history of Northern Ireland.

For instance, in 1968-9, at the start of the 'Troubles', all most Nationalists wanted was 'one man, one vote' and a fairer deal - to be able to 'live on the good side of the tracks' in US parlance - plus protection from the odd Loyalist mob trying to ethnically cleanse them. The British Army was deployed in Ulster on August 14th 1969 to do the latter and initially got on well with the Catholic population fo that reason; the IRA were unable or unwilling to 'protect' the Nationalist communities, hence the Catholic joke that IRA stood for 'I Ran Away'. But the military soon found themselves in conflict with the IRA over turf when the later got its act together; the Provisional IRA then started to take pot shots at the military and police. As a consequence, the UK government took the crassly stupid decision to deploy the Parachute Regiment. Now, these guys are great at fighting a war and certainly if I was in a fire fight I would want them with me, but to use them as an auxiliary police unit in civilian areas was crazy, and the inevitable happened - Bloody Sunday - which was a massive recruiting boost for the Provos, who embarked on their own wave of bloody atrocities. The UK then scrapped the Northern Irish parliament set up in 1922 and introduced direct rule until 1998. Since then, devolution has been attempted in fits and starts; the latest round of elections in Ulster represent a worrying polarisation in favour of Sinn Fein and the DUP.

As to the reforms the Civil Rights movement in '68 wanted, well, as UM has pointed out, these have been more than accomplished, but by that time, the Catholic population was so radicalised by the above events that these failed to mollify. The problem has been - and continues to be - not moderate Unionism or moderate Nationalism but the hooligan and violent elements that the extremes of both sides cultivate - whether it be Provo gangs kneecapping their 'own people' or Loyalist yobs hurling abuse at Catholic schoolchildren.

Ultimately, even if self-determination is applied strictly on an Ulster basis rather than to Ireland as a whole, we are looking at a united Ireland within a generation, simply because the Nationalist birthrate in Ulster is higher than the Unionist. I think that most moderate Unionists recognise that.

Oh, and Galatian, you can't partition Ulster. Ted Heath thought about that once and came to the conclusion that the only way you could do that would be to forcibly remove eg the Protestants from the Waterside in Londonderry (or the Derry Catholics from the Bogside and Creggan estates) - I'm sure as a respecter of human rights you would not want to do that

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

You really think so Matt. The benefits of being a British citizen (or resident) are so much better than being a citizen or resident of Eire. I think when push comes to shove pragmatism may win out. I live in Eire and my son is living in N.I. I love visiting him because life is so much easier up there. He and his wife just had a baby a beautiful modern hospital. We just had two babies born in our church here and the hospital looks like something from the 40's compared. Do you think anyone up North REALLY wants that?

 

Agreed up to a point; it depends how romantic the notions of Nationalism and Nationalists are. Certainly I agree with you ref conditions in the Republic being much worse than in the Province; my wife used to live in Derry a few years ago (she has relatives by marriage amongst the Brethren there) and she always used to remark on how bone-jarring the roads became the moment you crossed the border.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Glad to see that you used the Irish name for the City of Derry

I think pragmatism will win out over idealism, unless they are major changes.

 

The reason this result occurred is quite simple - a mishandling of the peace process by the British/Irish governments. Both have followed a "peace at any price" agenda, so they cuddled up to Sinn Fein and left the moderate SDLP out in the cold, therefore Nationalists began to view SDLP as a political irrelevance, and Sinn Fein as the party who secured pro Nationalist concessions from the governments.

These same concessions, along with the blind eye diplomacy which over looked IRA targeting, the spy ring in Stormont, Colombia and the FARC connection etc., left Unionists feeling they voted for an agreement which did not work, and which did not take into account their legitimate concerns and aspirations.

I think it is a shame that DUP are viewed as extreme. I don't think they should be equated with Sinn Fein. There are parties in the loyalist community which speak for loyalist terrorism, but the DUP is not one of them. Almost all their politicians are born again people, and the party has come up with alternatives to create agreement between people of good will who hold to democratic principles. The alternative is unwelcome by the governments because it leaves the unreformed terrorists where they belong - out in the cold - and probably sends them back to their murderous campaigns of violence. So the governments with a gun held at their heads basically give most of what Sinn Fein asks for.

It is to the credit of the Unionist community, whether pro or anti agreement that they returned only 1 paramilitary spokesman to Stormont in contrast with the Nationalists who managed to have their community represented largely by gunmen and bombers in suits.

 

But Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson also have criminal convictions. Granted, they are not terrorists; but it was largely Paisley's ('Dr No')intransigence in the late 60s and 70s that contributed to the SDLP being left out in the cold then and gave more muscle to the Provos (although agreed with you that this has in the last decade been far more the fault of the UK governments in talking to IRA-Sinn Fein). I do however also agree with you that the DUP politicians are largely men and women of God. I remember being very impressed by an interview Paisley gave once when he said words to the effect of "Whatever mistakes I've made and wrongs I've committed- and I admit I've made a few - when I get before God, I can point to my Lord Jesus and say with certainty that He's paid for them all." That blew me away.

I'd be interested in your answers to a couple of questions. Please note that these are genuine questions and not framed in the spirit of 'baiting' you in anyway:-

1. Now that Catholicism is largely a spent and discredited force in the Irish Republic,what is the basis of your wish to remain British rather than become part of a larger Irish Republic? Is it based more on pragmatism than ideology, as hinted by C4K?

2. Do you accept that the demands of the 1968 Civil Rights Movement for equal votes and better housing/land/conditions for Catholics were justified at that time(putting to one side the violence that followed)?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

1. Now that Catholicism is largely a spent and discredited force in the Irish Republic,what is the basis of your wish to remain British rather than become part of a larger Irish Republic? Is it based more on pragmatism than ideology, as hinted by C4K?

I'll let UM answer for himself, but note that the pragmatism I am talking about is on the part of the Nationalist community, not the Loyalist side. The Loyalist are just that, loyal to the crown. Their motivation would not be pragmatism.

 

Yes, I know I was just wondering whether there was a similar pragmatism on the Unionist side. The question was sparked in part by a remark made to me some years ago by a Unionist friend to the effect that the Unionist community did not so much fear rule from Dublin as rule from Rome, as a bar to unification; with Rome (and, indeed, arguably, national loyalties themselves under the EU)becoming more and more of an irrelevance, I wondered whether Unionists would be better-disposed to a United Ireland?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt,

In answer to your first question I think the Roman Catholic church is far from a spent force in the Republic of Ireland, but even if it was I still would not want to leave the UK for one simple reason - I am British. I do not identify with the Irish culture in any way. I did not grow up playing Gaelic games, but learned to value sports such as Rugby and cricket. I did not learn the Irish language, I identify with British politics rather than Irish politics (i.e. Fianna Fail etc) My forefathers fought and died in the British armed services in service of the United Kingdom, so my history is tied up with British history. I do not want to be part of an Irish state in any shape size or form, no matter what the economics.

On your second point I think, as I think most contemporary Unionists do, that the behaviour of Unionist governments in the past toward the Nationalist community was patently wrong. I think it gave oxygen to the IRA campaign of the 60's and 70's. Having said that, it should be remembered the working class Protestants suffered many of the same injustices as the working class Catholics. That's not a justification, but just to give a little balance. Those discrimanatory practices have long since been addressed, and now the balance has swung the other way, where R.C's are more favoured than Protestants for jobs in public sector etc. It is not unusual for jobs to be advertised with a statement to the effect "We are an Equal Oppotunities Employer - applications from the minority community are especially welcome," i.e., Protestants need not apply.

I think we should also remember that Eire (or the Republic as it is now known) has also been guilty of sectarianism in the past and does not have a squeaky clean record on many of the same issues which it condemns Britain and Unionists for. (E.g. State collusion, 'A Catholic state for a Catholic people' etc.) The Protestant community in the South has all but been frozen out and ethnically cleansed by stealth, and that too should not be forgotten.

British & Proud of It,

David

 

Thanks, David. Do you agree with C4K that the Nationalist community will ultimately be pragmatic rather than ideological?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt, I think SDLP folks generally know what side their bread is buttered on and are happy to remain within the UK as long as their Irish identity is respected, but I believe hardline Sinn Fein supporters would happily go for a British withdrawal and United Ireland whatever the cost. Ultimately this suits their ambition to create a little Marxist state on the edge of Europe and as a burr in the side of capitalist Britain.

 

John Wilson highly recommends a new book
entitled, Christianity and the Celts.
Wilson is editor of Books & Culture
on of my favorite journals. I'm going to
get it.

Clay