Budgetary Savings from Military Restraint

[Don]

The thing that irks me, CTB, is that I actually took the time and effort to read the document and attempt to provide a reasoned response to what I considered a "head in the clouds" recommendation.

You took, what, two minutes maybe, to degrade our US military.

Give it some thought.

 

[KenH]

Then when your children are inducted you will know it is for the good of the country.

All of our furkids are past draft age...except for maybe Ginger, one of our toy poodles.

As a libertarian I am opposed to any draft. I also think it is illegal per the 13th amendment to the U.S. constitution.

 

[NiteShift]

All of our furkids are past draft age...except for maybe Ginger, one of our toy poodles.

As a libertarian I am opposed to any draft. I also think it is illegal per the 13th amendment to the U.S. constitution.

"Furkids"? Is that some breed of goat? J/K.

My kids are beyond draft age also, and my oldest completed a six year enlistment last year, so it wouldn't affect mine either. But if people insist on reducing defense spending, then looking at the return of the draft is a viable option.

Defense is the only US agency that has been significantly reduced in size over the last 20 years.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The thing that irks me, CTB, is that I actually took the time and effort to read the document and attempt to provide a reasoned response to what I considered a "head in the clouds" recommendation.

You took, what, two minutes maybe, to degrade our US military.

Give it some thought.

I may be wrong, but your response to my post indicates you have never been in the military. What I posted is a saying I heard fairly often when I was in the Army. It is not disrespect. It is a saying that is in actuality pointing to a truth.

Also it is often said that, "When the troops stop complaining it is time for the officers to become very worried."

[This saying is put much more graphically within the military, but I do not want the wrath of others or the administrators to come down on me for quoting it as it is really said.]

We should re-institute the draft.

 

[targus]

The thing that irks me, CTB, is that I actually took the time and effort to read the document and attempt to provide a reasoned response to what I considered a "head in the clouds" recommendation.

You took, what, two minutes maybe, to degrade our US military.

Give it some thought.

Don't take it personally.

Crabby's posts are usually either: off topic, nostalgic rememberences, name dropping, bragging, moral lecturing, or jingleism.

Don't give them a second thought. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Don]

I may be wrong, but your response to my post indicates you have never been in the military.

23 years active duty this December. 1 year in the National Guard prior to that.

Instituting the draft would result in...what? Cost savings? How, exactly?

 

[targus]

Prediction: This is where Crabby disappears for a while.

 

[Crabtownboy]

23 years active duty this December. 1 year in the National Guard prior to that.

Instituting the draft would result in...what? Cost savings? How, exactly?

• 
  .It would bring some discipline to young lives.
  .It would give technical training to many young people who would never receive training other wise. I would never have learned Morse code and other radio communication skills without having been trained in the Army.
  .It would give some several years to mature and find some direction in their lives
  .It would spread responsibility for our defense to all economic sectors of our society.
  .It would show many how good they have it in our society.
  .If there was a war, it would spread the pain of death and disability to all economic sectors of our society.
  .Young people from differing backgrounds would learn to live with and respect each other. You never forget your military buddies and you carry fond feelings for the all your life.
  

I am sure others could add to the list of benefits a draft would bring about.

 

[targus]

• 
  I am sure others could add to the list of benefits a draft would bring about.
  

• 
  
  The topic of the thread is BUDGETARY SAVINGS - not benefits.
  
  His question was how does a draft result in COST SAVINGS - not benefits.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The topic of the thread is BUDGETARY SAVINGS - not benefits.

His question was how does a draft result in COST SAVINGS - not benefits.

You are brilliant. Figure it out for yourself. Bye for today, getting late here.

 

[targus]

You are brilliant. Figure it out for yourself. Bye for today, getting late here.

And as predicted - Crabby has left the building.

 

[HankD]

• 
  .It would bring some discipline to young lives.
  .It would give technical training to many young people who would never receive training other wise. I would never have learned Morse code and other radio communication skills without having been trained in the Army.
  .It would give some several years to mature and find some direction in their lives
  .It would spread responsibility for our defense to all economic sectors of our society.
  .It would show many how good they have it in our society.
  .If there was a war, it would spread the pain of death and disability to all economic sectors of our society.
  .Young people from differing backgrounds would learn to live with and respect each other. You never forget your military buddies and you carry fond feelings for the all your life.
  

I am sure others could add to the list of benefits a draft would bring about.

Amen.

Don't forget the GI Bill.

I reeived my undergraduate degree via the GI Bill which allowed me a decent living and the resource to go on to graduate work.

HankD

 

[Don]

• .It would bring some discipline to young lives.
  .It would give technical training to many young people who would never receive training other wise. I would never have learned Morse code and other radio communication skills without having been trained in the Army.
  .It would give some several years to mature and find some direction in their lives
  .It would spread responsibility for our defense to all economic sectors of our society.
  .It would show many how good they have it in our society.
  .If there was a war, it would spread the pain of death and disability to all economic sectors of our society.
  .Young people from differing backgrounds would learn to live with and respect each other. You never forget your military buddies and you carry fond feelings for the all your life.

I am sure others could add to the list of benefits a draft would bring about.

You're not talking about a draft; you're talking about mandatory service. The question about mandatory service is, how long is the mandatory service?

For example, you mentioned technical training; there are some technical training courses that last nine months, and there is some training that is only 4-6 weeks. If mandatory service is 2 years, then the ones who only had training for one month give back around 20 months in return (counting basic training as well); whereas the nine-monthers give back about 12. Further, since that training is actually very technical, does it make sense that they spend nine times the training time, to only give back 50% of their enlistment time?

Your comments about "spreading to all economic sectors"; I assume you mean "the rich." What makes you think they won't have loopholes that prevent service? Remember, not everyone will be able to serve, whether physically or otherwise incapable.

You mention showing how good we have it in America; only if they actually serve in other countries. There are many positions these days that cause service members to stay in America; and with only a 2-year service commitment, the chance they never go overseas is drastically increased.

All in all, you have good intentions; but just like Obama's presidency, your strategic vision has problems when it meets operational reality.

 

[poncho]

So no military members are involved with the construction of it?

Not so much anymore. Chain of command being what is today. Central bankers, corporations, president, congress then the military.

Used to be a time when the brass had some pull though, say back in 1962.

The year the Joint Chiefs drew up a plan to terrorize American citizens in order to start a war with Cuba. Thankfully there was still a bit of sanity left in Washington at the time.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

Now, I'm not so sure there is any sanity at all in Washington. But I guess that's what we get for trying to maintain the world's greatest militarized corporate empire on the planet with fiat tax dollars that are being forever devalued by the same folks at the very top of the chain of command.

 

[NiteShift]

"There is evidence that budgetary costs have been higher under the AVF than under the Vietnam-era draft system. For example, basic pay for less-experienced service members nearly doubled between 1971 (two years before the AVF began) and 1975 (two years after), adjusted for inflation. A report by the former General Accounting Office estimated that the move to an all-volunteer force added about $3 billion per year to the military’s costs in 1974 dollars (more than $10 billion in 2006 dollars), or about 11 percent of DoD’s spending on its manpower budget accounts in 1974."

**

Not that I am necessarily in favor of it's return. But when certain folks harp on the need to cut defense, they often overlook one of the most obvious remedies. And it is one that most would oppose even as they talk about the need to sacrifice for the good of the country.

 

[KenH]

People should not be forced into involuntary servitude for the "good of the country".

 

[NiteShift]

People should not be forced into involuntary servitude for the "good of the country".

Hmm, well at least some of our founding fathers thought otherwise. And I would point you to your own comment at #15,

"If we are going to change the direction of this country before we do literally go bankrupt then people are going to have to lay aside parochial interests for the good of the country."

 

[KenH]

Hmm, well at least some of our founding fathers thought otherwise. And I would point you to your own comment at #15,

Because a founding father thought something doesn't mean it is a correct thought or that one has to agree with it if one loves this country.

There is nothing in #15 that indicates support for a draft.

 

[Don]

"There is evidence that budgetary costs have been higher under the AVF than under the Vietnam-era draft system. For example, basic pay for less-experienced service members nearly doubled between 1971 (two years before the AVF began) and 1975 (two years after), adjusted for inflation. A report by the former General Accounting Office estimated that the move to an all-volunteer force added about $3 billion per year to the military’s costs in 1974 dollars (more than $10 billion in 2006 dollars), or about 11 percent of DoD’s spending on its manpower budget accounts in 1974."

**

Not that I am necessarily in favor of it's return. But when certain folks harp on the need to cut defense, they often overlook one of the most obvious remedies. And it is one that most would oppose even as they talk about the need to sacrifice for the good of the country.

Question about this statistic: What was the basic serviceman's level of poverty in the pre-AVF numbers? How much was the average serviceman making in 1974, as compared to his civilian counterpart?

Before you look at this as a potential solution, you need to put it in the entire context.

 

[Bob Alkire]

People should not be forced into involuntary servitude for the "good of the country".

My friend I was. I got a draft notice and that is the only reason that I went into the service, and my father got one for WW II and that is the only reason he went in. But as he said and I believe, to give up your life which is in God's hands any way isn't giving much up to live in such a fine country.