Bush Hating

[Jul]

One more thing, Mr. Black

wouldn't want our nice preppy kids mixing with smelly poor people

I don't know about where YOU live, but where I live, soap is cheap, and a lack of cleanliness would have very little, if anything to do with economics and much to do with personal hygiene habits. Do people have NO responsibility for personal life choices in your world??!

Oh, and Thank You CMG

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
In answer to your first scenario, it should go from Frank to Henry.

Really? You'd take it from:

Joe works hard, has an average job, saves his money, lives very frugally, and is able to send his kids to good schools.

and give it to:

Frank has a higher salary than both, but chooses only to work about half the time, and play golf the rest of the time while Joe and Henry are at work. Hence, he takes home less money over a year. He spends a lot of money irresponsibly, and has a hard time paying the bills.

??

You're a bigger thief than I imagined.

Hey, how about sending me about a thousand dollars a month. I could use some time off. </font>[/QUOTE]Um...how do you get from me saying "In answer to your first scenario, it should go from Frank to Henry" to your statement:"You'd take it from: Joe works hard, has an average job, saves his money, lives very frugally, and is able to send his kids to good schools and give it to Frank "?

BTW, I don't appreciate being called a thief. Taxation is not theft, live with it. Do you object to paying taxes for the military? By your definition, that's theft too. Why don't you turn up at your nearest army base and accuse them of being thieves, if that's what you think?

Jul, there really are poor people. If you haven't met any, get out more. I assure you, poverty exists. Why can't you see the injustice in you having to work your fingers to the bone to make ends meet, as you have described it, whilst many of the well-off, such as the guy Frank in PA Jim's illustration, work less hard or at least no harder than you and get paid mega-bucks? And I wasn't saying poor people smell, just that many rich people seem to think they do.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Brett]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:
quote:
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Originally posted by Brett:
In my opinion, the government SHOULD steal from the rich and give it to the poor, which will obviously make for a more economically equitable society.
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Which of the remaining nine commandments do you not agree with?

By that logic, any taxation is unbiblical.

Yes, that philosophy worked very well in Cuba, China, North Korea, and the Soviet Union did it not? They really became more economically equitable societies

Is the socialist nature of these places really the cause of their downfall?

I'd still like to see an argument as to how in the world it is moral, given some money to give away, to give $2000 to a rich person and $20 to a poor person.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Um...how do you get from me saying "In answer to your first scenario, it should go from Frank to Henry" to your statement:"You'd take it from: Joe works hard, has an average job, saves his money, lives very frugally, and is able to send his kids to good schools and give it to Frank "?

My apology. I did not read carefully. But, isn't it Frank's right to earn and use his money as he sees fit? Are we to judge him and take it away because by OUR standards he should act differently? It's not a crime to work short hours and blow your money on stereo equipment, even though I think it is bad practice.

BTW, I don't appreciate being called a thief. Taxation is not theft, live with it. Do you object to paying taxes for the military? By your definition, that's theft too. Why don't you turn up at your nearest army base and accuse them of being thieves, if that's what you think?

You are the one who proposed stealing (your word). Taxes aren't necessarily theft. You point out legitimate uses for taxes. But consider:

If I enter your house and take money while you sleep, or strong-arm you for your cash, I would be a thief. Would I be any less a thief if I were to use raw political power to have the government take the money from you and give it to me? See, it's not as simple as "all taxes are legitimate".


-PA Jim

 

[Kiffin]

Yes, that philosophy worked very well in Cuba, China, North Korea, and the Soviet Union did it not? They really became more economically equitable societies
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Is the socialist nature of these places really the cause of their downfall?

Actually you said the Government should steal from the Rich to feed the poor. That was very much Communist philosophy and immoral. It is also built on a false premise that the rich are all evi. The Socialist policies in the US have not helped the Poor but have overtaxed the Middle class and the Rich. Because of over taxation the Rich corporations get back their money by raising prices on goods and the poor and the Middle class will pay more for these goods. The logical way to fix this is do away with Income Taxes and have a National Sales Tax. Retired people who have already paid into the system could be given a card to identify that are immune from paying Sales taxes. A National Sales Tax would mean what you make at work you actually take home and would benefit the poor, middle class and the rich because it is fair. It would also stimulate the economy because everyone has more money.

I'd still like to see an argument as to how in the world it is moral, given some money to give away, to give $2000 to a rich person and $20 to a poor person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one is being GIVEN anything by a TAX CUT (That is you imply Tax cuts are like a gift the government gives to people) because it is our money. The Government has no right or authority under the US Constitution to give away money because the money is the people who paid it in not the Government. Government has no money but what it gets from us. If a person who makes $30-$100,000 gets more money through a 2% Tax cut than one who makes $10,000 it is because the rich or middle class person pays higher taxes already and is getting back what he put in. So that is fair.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:

My apology. I did not read carefully. But, isn't it Frank's right to earn and use his money as he sees fit? Are we to judge him and take it away because by OUR standards he should act differently?
You are the one who proposed stealing (your word). Taxes aren't necessarily theft.
-PA Jim

Thanks for the apology

. Re Frank - is it his right to earn the money - depends how he makes it.

I don't remember proposing stealing at all. I don' t regard taxation as theft. It was I believe Brett who said that, and you who then picked him up - rightly - on the use of that word; I then commented further on the concept

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Matt,

I sincerely apologize. You are correct. I made error upon error and falsely attributed it to you. Maybe Brett will be back to defend his position.

Still, I contend that money gotten lawfully is personal property and cannot morally be confiscated to give to other individuals. Taxes for basic gov't functions yes. Redistribution no...it is an institutionalized violation of the eighth commandment.

 

[Matt Black]

Cheers

If we change "money gotten lawfully" to "money gotten morally", do you think we have an entirely new ballgame?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Jul]

I used to work for a staffing company - in payroll - at one point a highly compensated employee came in screaming mad - he had gone out on his own and learned new skills (in his off time, taking time away from his family) and as a result, was given a decent increase in his hourly rate. The increase put him in a different tax bracket. His take home pay decreased as a result.

That is the current system in action. I empathized, but asked him to take his anger somewhere that it could make a difference.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
...

If we change "money gotten lawfully" to "money gotten morally", do you think we have an entirely new ballgame?
...

No, I don't think so. If someone's personal property is gotten legally, I don't think anyone else has the right to lay claim to it.

Many things are sinful but not illegal. If it were gotten illegally, then the state would have authority to step in.