Bush unworthy of the Christian vote

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

In regards to point 4 - what has become the god of many Bush supporters here? Maybe the Republican Party?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

That may very well be true. However, I don't think you can make an argument that the CP is the "Christian" party. All I know is that when we Republicans talk about Biblical principles of helping your neighbor when dealing with supporting Israel and Iraq, the CPer's tend to abandon Biblical arguments and argue from the Constitution about how we should not be sending any aid to them. I guess the Bible doesn't adaquately support their isolationists views of the world.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I would agree that there is no "Christian" Party.

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:

1. The CP has been so anti-war the entire time, it is surprising to see you try to deny this. They are for retreating like cowards and turning Iraq over to Saddam again.

The only regret that I have over fighting terrorists is that we can only kill each of them once. But the Iraq war is a misguided effort, IMO. That position does not make one a pacifist.

2. I have seen the supporters of Peroutka state they think Clinton was more fiscally responsible than Bush on the economy and criticize his tax cuts. There is only one thing I remember Clinton doing with the economy inn 1993, I believe, and that was the largest tax increase in 20 years.

The CP would be against Clinton's tax increase and in favor of Bush's tax cut. But we also realize that a tax cut in the face of wold, unrestrained spending is hollow. If you look at the numbers, Clinton was more responsible than Bush. Both had bad policy.

3. CP supporters on this very board have asserted that Israel tricked America into fighting their war in Iraq for them, posted articles by anti-semites such as Buchannan, Sobran, and Raimondo who tried to assert that Israel was behind 9-11, and other wild anti-semitic accusations.

This is an emotional issue; but you should not attribute everything that a "CP supporter" says to the CP. Look at their positions, and you'll see.

4. I disagree. The CPer's explicitly submits to the Lordship of the Constitution of the United States. It has, IMO, become their Bible and their god.

Why are you so bothered by the Constitution?

From the CP platform:

The Constitution Party gratefully acknowledges the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of these United States. We hereby appeal to Him for mercy, aid, comfort, guidance and the protection of His Providence as we work to restore and preserve these United States.

This great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been and are afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.

Joseph, awhile back I remember you stating that you repented of making unfair and hateful judgements against Muslims. You should do the same for Christians.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Pennsylvania Jim:

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
[qb]
Joseph, awhile back I remember you stating that you repented of making unfair and hateful judgements against Muslims. You should do the same for Christians.

1. I speak about my experience with the CP party and their supporters. I have experienced all of the above.

2. I have no problem with the Constitution unless it is elevated to a level that is equal to or above the Bible. This is what I have seen many of the CPer's do.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
Notice how it's becoming increasingly obvious that the Bushies know they have no reasonable or Biblical basis for their position, so all they can do is attack the CP.

Here is my reasonable basis for supporting Bush:

1. War on Terror
2. Tax Cuts
3. 2-4 SC appointments in the next four years
4. Support for Israel
5. PBA ban, Lacy Peterson Law, appointment of pro-life judges

But, let's have some fun here. Do you have a Biblical basis for pulling all support for Israel and Iraq. It seems to me that my Bible says something about helping our neighbors. How does the CP BIBLICALLY defend their idea that they should withdraw aid from our neighbors? Everyone pay particular attention to how many times scripture is quoted and how many times the Constitution is quoted here.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

Do you also support the millios of federal aid going to Egypt also? The US Constitution is the law that our government is supposed to follow. Can you show me where the US Constitution authorizes taking money from the voters to redistribute around the world? The Constitution Party isn't against Israel, they are agaist sending millions of tax dollars to any foriegn nation.

The Bible commands Christians to help their neighbors, it doesn't command the government to take money from the voters to give away. The Constitution is quoted on this forum because this is the politics forum. The US Constitution should be the foundation of law in politics. Would you rather we throw away the Constitution and use the Old Testament law to set up a theocracy for our system of government?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The Bible also says to render unto Ceaser whatis Ceaser's. The issue of the Bible was brought up because the whole idea of whether or not a Christian should vote for Bush or Peroutka was brought up by a CP supporter. It has also been implied that the CP is more Christian than the Republicans as a reason why we should vote for the CP. I disagree. The CP is certainly more Constitutional and isolationist than the GOP, but definitely not more Christian. If it were, then they would hold strictly to the teachings of the Bible, even if that disagrees with the Constitution (although, I know that many of you would confuse the two ... ).

Personally, I do think an OT theocracy is the type of Government that God would have preferred. As a matter of fact, I believe he was hestitant to allow Israel to have a monarchy instead. If our country were run by Christian, Godly men, I certainly think we would be better off. If one were to take a brief glance at the CP website without really digging into their ideas, one might even come to that conclusion also.

Also, I note that as of yet, no CP supporter has defended successfully from the Bible the idea that we should pull all support from Israel and Iraq. Who will be the first to give it a go? How many scripture will they quote to show us that they are the party of Christians and for Christians. My guess is that they are the party of Constitutional isolationists for the Constitutional isolationists.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by corinne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by church mouse guy:
As for Christians are blind to vote GOP, what other choice is there? The Dems are pro-choice and Kerry says that gays are born that way.

You are wrong. I know many democrats who are pro life, and there are republicans who also happen to be gay. That you would generalise to that extent is frightening. Do you really think that all conservatives are heterosexuals? What about Mary Cheney, who is a lesbian and a republican, then?

Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, Corinne, but you are quite wrong. The official Democrat Party platform says that they intend to preserve a woman's right of choice, so that the Party is officially pro-choice. The GOP is officially pro-life in their platform.
</font>[/QUOTE]Forget about the parties. I am talking about people. You cannot deny that there are prolife democrats and prochoice republicans. You cannot deny that there are antigay marriage democrats and gay republicans. The party line exists, but nobody is obliged to follow it and many don't.

Look, it is like the Christians. Many Christians are for Bush and many are also for Kerry. Face the fact: America is divided, and not only politically.

Corinne

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Corrine,

While you are correct about the diversity of the parties, it is quite clear where John Kerry stands on the issue of abortion. One has to look no further than his record of voting in the senate for the last 20 years to figure out where he stands on the abortion issue, including voting against the PBA ban that Bush supported.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Also, I note that as of yet, no CP supporter has defended successfully from the Bible the idea that we should pull all support from Israel and Iraq. Who will be the first to give it a go? How many scripture will they quote to show us that they are the party of Christians and for Christians. My guess is that they are the party of Constitutional isolationists for the Constitutional isolationists.

The commands of the Bible are to the Christians not to the government. Are you saing that you can use Scripture to support giving Israel $3 billion a year, with over $2 billion of that being for military aid. If that is your deffinition of loving your neighbor, then when is the last time you bought all of your neigbors a bunch of guns to defend themselves with?

Israel is just one of the many countries that recieve unconstitutional aid at the US taxpayers expense.

If you support giving Israel $3 billion a year in tax money, do you also support the $2 billion a year in tax money going to Egypt, or the millions going to Jordan, Pakistan, India and all of the other nations around the world? The United States gives out $13.3 billion tax dollars in direct Foreign Aid annually.

The Constitution Party is not singling out Israel as you say they are, the Constitution Party is against all unconstitutional Foreign Aid.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
The issue of the Bible was brought up because the whole idea of whether or not a Christian should vote for Bush or Peroutka was brought up by a CP supporter. It has also been implied that the CP is more Christian than the Republicans as a reason why we should vote for the CP.

Joseph Botwinick

For example, the original post in this thread said the following:

The Constitution Party Presidential nominee, Michael A. Peroutka, who appears on enough state ballots to achieve a majority of electoral votes, represents a party that proclaims the Kingship of Jesus Christ in its Platform. Peroutka also never hesitates to advance biblical principles in governance and a return to solid constitutional government. Yet, these false opposition organizations such as the Christian Coalition black his name out so that Bush is the only one that appears to be in favor of biblical principles.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/18/2386.html

Here were some of the responses from some of the other CP supporters:

PA Jim said: BUT...several have contended that we are electing a politician, not a theologian. While I think that is not good logic, I will go along, just for the sake of argument.

C4K said: But its okay Jim.

Don't you know - we MUST vote Republican, right or wrong.

PA Jim Said: It's sad, isn't it?

What if God is simply waiting for His people to stand up for righteousness, rather than side with the world and make excuses?

Pastor Greg said: A simple message for all "Bush is the Messiah" blind Republicans. A vote for Michael Peroutka is....a vote for Michael Peroutka. Why can't you see that it is Bush's compromise on Biblical truth that loses him the votes of thinking Christians?

JGrubbs said: Put Specter on the cover of all of the Christian magazines and encourage the conservative Christian voters to support him, because a third-party candidate is just not viable.

PA Jim said: Then Christians might just as well abandon the process and stay home. What good is it if you commit to voting for evil candidates?

and

Most of the CP members and candidates have a clear Christian testimony, and their very platform explicitly submits to the lordship of Jesus Christ. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

To which I note and respond:

1. The theory has been put forth that Bush is the candidate of the devil and Peroutka is the Christian candidate by the CP supporters.

2. Based on that, shouldn't the CPer's show us from the Bible where they get the idea of not helping our neighbors? Use the Bible, and not the Constitution.

Good Luck!

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Also, I note that as of yet, no CP supporter has defended successfully from the Bible the idea that we should pull all support from Israel and Iraq. Who will be the first to give it a go? How many scripture will they quote to show us that they are the party of Christians and for Christians. My guess is that they are the party of Constitutional isolationists for the Constitutional isolationists.

The commands of the Bible are to the Christians not to the government.</font>[/QUOTE]Therefore, it should not matter that the leader is not a Christian? Should the government not use Christian principles when deciding policy? Or should they only do that when it would agree with your ideology?

Are you saing that you can use Scripture to support giving Israel $3 billion a year, with over $2 billion of that being for military aid.[/QUOTE]

The Bible does tells us to help our neighbors and to stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. Without America's help, Israel would have been driven into the sea a long time ago.

If that is your deffinition of loving your neighbor, then when is the last time you bought all of your neigbors a bunch of guns to defend themselves with? [/QUOTE]

If I had enough money, I would certainly do that.

Israel is just one of the many countries that recieve unconstitutional aid at the US taxpayers expense.[/QUOTE]

So, therefore, you are defending your parties policy with the Constitution and not the Bible. Thank you very much for proving my point.

If you support giving Israel $3 billion a year in tax money, do you also support the $2 billion a year in tax money going to Egypt, or the millions going to Jordan, Pakistan, India and all of the other nations around the world? The United States gives out $13.3 billion tax dollars in direct Foreign Aid annually.

The Constitution Party is not singling out Israel as you say they are, the Constitution Party is against all unconstitutional Foreign Aid. [/QUOTE]

I don't know enough information about these other nations to say whether or not I approve of them. But, I know that I certainly do approve of the aid we give to Israel and Iraq.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JGrubbs]

How about the aid that we have been giving to Iraq for the last 20 years while Saddam was in power? Was that okay, and the "Christian" thing to do as well?

You say, "Without America's help, Israel would have been driven into the sea a long time ago.", but wasn't it George W. Bush telling Israel to show restraint against the terrorist who have attacked them, and to show restraint against Arafat? If the nation of Israel as we know it today is God's choosen nation, then wouldn't it be God that is keeping them from being "driven into the sea", and not America?

Do you honestly believe that a $3 billion a year blank check is the Biblical definition of "love your neighbor"?

Can you defend the three branches of government or the electoral college system with the Bible? We are not a theocracy, but a Constitutional Republic, everything our government has the power to do is in the US Constitution, and federal foriegn aid is not one of those powers.

 

[proddavid]

After reading through some of these posts I was truck with several impressions. Just because we give Israel money does not mean that will we get blessed. What if Israel uses it to massacre people or to further alienate the Arab people?

There is a great deal of emphasis put upon abortion and stacking the courts with favorable judges who are still stuck with the separation of Church and State of which they must do. So do we go back to the mistakes our founding fathers learned in the British Isles. Look at Northern Ireland to see the results. As much as the Church challenges these issues, this is first elections where the common good of the individual and his or hers neighbours is silent. Does the Church wish to talk about fornication amongst its members? Drinking, drugs and those Christian who seek abortions? How many people cheat on their taxes every year, lie, decieve and have no love for anyone?

Foreign aid is bribery and nothing more. Oil rich countries do not need our money or the International Irish Fund to help Britain to resolve its mess in Ireland. We have homeless here, old people without food and health care, our neighbours who will go without.

Shame on us Lord!

 

[Hardsheller]

Remember, after Tuesday all of us are going to have to pray for the President Elect.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by proddavid:
After reading through some of these posts I was truck with several impressions. Just because we give Israel money does not mean that will we get blessed. What if Israel uses it to massacre people or to further alienate the Arab people?
Shame on us Lord!

No shame on you for spouting the typical liberal anti-semitic propaganda.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by JGrubbs:
How about the aid that we have been giving to Iraq for the last 20 years while Saddam was in power? Was that okay, and the "Christian" thing to do as well?

You say, "Without America's help, Israel would have been driven into the sea a long time ago.", but wasn't it George W. Bush telling Israel to show restraint against the terrorist who have attacked them, and to show restraint against Arafat? If the nation of Israel as we know it today is God's choosen nation, then wouldn't it be God that is keeping them from being "driven into the sea", and not America?

Do you honestly believe that a $3 billion a year blank check is the Biblical definition of "love your neighbor"?

Can you defend the three branches of government or the electoral college system with the Bible? We are not a theocracy, but a Constitutional Republic, everything our government has the power to do is in the US Constitution, and federal foriegn aid is not one of those powers.

Are you telling me that this election is not about Christian values and principles? That is fine. But please don't try to tell me that I am wrong as a Christian to vote for Bush and that you are right as a Christian to vote for Peroutka, especially when you cannot prove your corner on the market of Biblical morality.

BTW, at the time, yes it was the right thing to do to arm the rebels in Afganistan who drove out the Communists Soviets. Reagan was absolutely correct to do so. And, helping Israel in their time of need is certainly a very Biblical thing to do, just as it is with Iraq and Afganistan.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

Joseph,

It has been pointed out that God commands people, not governmednts to help their neighbors.

Did God command Israel to help the nations around them by taxing the Hebrew people, and giving away their substance?

And if, say, a $5 billion check to Israel annually is a biblical requirement, would you say that we really should be "giving" $10 Billion? 15? How about a Trillion? Would that be better? And, why are we so stingy with other nations? Israel at least has food.

Shouldn't we be giving more to dozens of starving nations in Africa? How about ten billion each? Twenty? That would feed a lot of people. Shoul we give away all that we have short of the necesities of life, to the nations of the world? Wouldn't that be Christian love?

See, you may have whatever opinion you wish with regard to aid to Israel, but if you make it a test of Christianinty, it opens a can of worms. And, as I said, nowhere does scripture suggest that the puropse of human government is to collectively redistribute wealth. That was Marx, not Jesus.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

You are right, Jim. But I wasn't the one who made my vote a test of Christianity. I think if you read the title of this thread and some of the responses, it is very clear that the CPers are the one who would like to do that. I am only challenging that assertion.

Joseph Botwinick