Bush vetoes stem cell bill as promised

If I valued human remains I would not be an organ donar. And I would be against such things as medical students studing kadavers, organ donation, cremation, otopsies.

I care about life not flesh.

My spelling is poor :type: but you get the point.

 

For me the two issues are closely linked. I would either want the test tube baby process to be stopped or I would support using those soon to be discarded embryoes for the betterment of mankind, i.e. for stem cell research to find cures for some terrible diseases. That being said, I do think we need to be ever vigilant about stepping over the line. It's not as cut and dried as many people think. My 92 year old aunt has severe Altheimers and my 90 year old mother is slipping in that direction. I know that it's too late for Mom but I'd like to see other people spared this pain.

 

Sorry to hear about your Mom.

I also hear they are trying to mend broken or under developed spinal cords which may allow some of the paralysed to walk.

 

So lets say they found the cures for these diseases useing the cells from dead babies. And they need to make thousands of doses. Do they need to keep killing babies to make the cure?

Is is etical to profit from evil?

I have had relitives die from altheimers. It is not pretty but I do not see the benifit supporting evil to prolong the life of 90 year old people. Even if we love them.

BUT I do agree that the parctice of killing babies needs to stop altogether. I just disagree that we should benifit from it as long as it is here.

If my kid was dieing and they came to me in the hospital and told me they could save her with embrionic stem cells. I would decline, knowing that God is incharge and I would be with her again. We are to put Gods will above our own wishes.

 

Let's pray you never have to make this choice... raying:

 

At the point of time in question, they did not yet exist.

 

Question.

If a person punches a pregnent mother in the stomach and she looses the baby. Should that person be charged with murder or assault?

The difference would be years in prison comapired to months in jail.

 

For example? (Aside from capital punishment)

We are also debating what human life is here, which underlies the other decision about life and death.

As far as the zygote goes, as soon as the egg is fertilized, it has all the DNA needed to develop into a human being. This is the beginning point of that life. Are you saying this is not human life? If not, what is it?

Are you saying that an unborn baby is only a potential human life? So you make a distinction between potential human life and a human life? What's the difference?

 

So an unborn baby is like a lamp without electricity? Life is either life or it is not. An unborn child is alive, is taking in nutrition, gets hiccups, moves at later stages, etc. Do you consider all unborn children not alive? If not, at what stage do they become alive?

So what did the woman lose? Some tissue?

So the fetus is a person but is not alive? But it's not dead. So what is it?

You believe in baptismal regeneration??!!

But if the unborn baby isn't alive, as you say, then why is abortion wrong? Your position is inconsistent, to say the least.

 

Quote: " have had relitives die from altheimers. It is not pretty but I do not see the benifit supporting evil to prolong the life of 90 year old people. Even if we love them. "

At what age is it ok? How about 79...my age? Why not just get rid of us? I think I will take what medical science has to offer and give my thanks to God that you are not my doctor or my vicar.

Cheers,

Jim

 

It is not ok at any age. I will take what medical science has to offer, as long as it is within the bounds of what my Lord wants. As long as it is moraly the right thing to do. I will not try to advance my life or the life of my loved ones by exterminating the life of an unborn child. That would be evil and wrong.

Jim I am not trying to just get rid of you. But it would be wrong to extend your life at the expence of another life.

 

No, I said an unborn baby is like a plugged in lamp. It need the electricity to remain just as a fetus must stay connected to the mother. Is the fetus breathing the breath of life?

A fetus. Don't discount the value and worth of an unborn fetus, it is still human. I just don't believe it's a living soul.

a fetus. a person. a human. but it yet to receive the breath of life so it isn't a living soul.

I believe the symbolism of the baptism is we die to sin as we are lowered into the watery grave. This is symbolic of dying with Christ. Like Christ, we are then raised from that grave into the newness of life.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Why does the unborn baby have to be considered "alive" to make abortion wrong? I don't believe one is dependant on the other as you do. Does that really make me a bad person?

Sin is transgression against GOD. It has nothing to do with any earthly definition nor does it need any clarifying word to substantiate it's position in our divine relation with GOD. Remember, there was sin (speaking of Noah's day and before) before there was a law. I don't need the word "alive" to better define, support or justify my belief that abortion is wrong, I believe it is contrary to GOD's will so it is wrong. Anything contrary to GOD's will is wrong no matter what the world thinks or what words we use to describe it.

If you need to think of it as murder to consider it wrong then so be it.

 

True, at the expense of another life. But at the expense of something that would otherwise be disgarded then I would love to attend Jim's 100th BDay party. :thumbs:

 

And thus our disagreement. I believe that an unborn baby is alive. A life. I dont believe that life should be disgarded. In fact I dont want that life to be in the freezer in the first place. The whole thing shows how degraded our value on human life is.

I would love to attend Jims 100th bday only if God wills Jim to be 100. Dont get me wrong Jim should do anything his Dr. tell him will help him live longer. As long as what his Dr. says does not conflict with Gods word.

 

The President didn't have a problem with using those already in existence and were going to be thrown out. so he okd the testing on them. But he as well as I have a concern that stem cells will be created just for this purpose. The end result will be that human life becomes a comodity.

 

<Some comments snipped from above for brevity>

LeBuick, I still don't understand why you consider abortion wrong. I consider it wrong because I consider it the murder of a living human being.

I don't think even medically speaking that one would say the fetus is not alive. Just because the fetus is not breathing on his/her own did not make him/her any less alive.

So a person on a breathing machine is not alive, right? So anyone on a breathing machine is not alive and is not a real person we should protect. They are "plugged in" to something like the fetus, as you put it.

(I'm going to speak in PA so will be gone a couple of days but would really like your response to this).

 

No, you are now twisting scripture to read into it as you need! I say twisting because A) Not only does the Scripture in Genesis not support that argument but it refutes it! B) You are completely ignoring unquestionable Scripture which has been put in front of you!

God made Adam from dust of the Earth and breathed life into him; as he was not born or "conceived" of a woman, carried for 9 months, and then delivered!

Gen. 2:7

Your argument advocates life does not begin until God breathes into a child's nostrils. Or it takes it own breath and thus it is not living. This is simply throwing scripture out the window, ignoring God, and believing what you wish.

With conception you have life, a "living" thing! A thing which God reveres as human life! If it were not living, then there would be no argument, on any side! As the advocates of stem cell would have no use.
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To pick up in Genesis. After the fall the Lord punishes Adam and Eve. He also condems the serpent. Gen. 3:15-16

God declares, women will have difficulty with the entire childbearing process. This in fact is exactly what women endure! If you doubt this then you doubt scripture, and would have to ignore what women throughout history would tell you. Conception, carry, and then bear children.

Gen. 4:1-2

They knew each other, conceived, carried, then had children. The old fashioned way!


Once again in Mathew.

Matt 1:18-21
Quote:
"..An Angel appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus...."
The Angel declares life is within Mary and she will have a Son. In this case Jesus.
Luke 1:34-37
Quote:
"... Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible."

Here again conception is noted with life. The Angel declares Elizabeth is pregnant with a Son and is in her 6th month. There is great reverence for the life within her.

Mary goes to see her relative, Elizabeth. Luke 1:41-42 "And it happened, when Elizabeth heard of the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are yo among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!."

Again great reverence is shown for the newly conceived within Mary, our Lord, and the babe within Elizabeth!

 

And once again, your "Bible Story Time" has no bearing on the issue of when a zygote is a person. It appears you also failed to read where I didn't advocate the "breath of life" position either, but no surprise there.

 

Adult stem cell and cord blood research is already yielding beneficial results. The only result that morally questionable embryonic stem cell has yielded is to further divide people over politics.

The results of the two different kinds of research should pretty much end the debate.

 

I can't begin to count how many times you say this is throwing scripture out the window yet you did not provide one scripture that even opened the window much like threw anything out. What scripture did we twist? How did we twist it?