Bush vetoes stem cell bill as promised

I realize this is where we differ. I don't believe it has to be murder to be wrong. As I see it, this was the problem with the law. If one could figure out how to do something between the cracks in the law you could reason what you did was right. This thinking brought about the creation of the Talmud etc...

The reason we don't need the law to know right from wrong is because GOD has given you a since or "spirit" of right and wrong. No one has to tell you not to cheat on your spouse, it's wrong and you know it's wrong if the law says it's wrong or not.

A burglar knows it's wrong to break in your house, he does it anyhow.
A murderer knows it wrong to take another life, he does it anyhow. My problem with law (and I believe GODS also) is mans excecution. Take murder, mans justice says "what about self defence? Is it wrong to kill in self defence?"

Wrong, a person on a breathing machine is still breathing. The machine is just assisting. Now I do have opinions about a person completely hooked to life support for 5 or 10 years before they finally pull the plug. A baby receives oxogyn via it's mother. That is completely different from assisted breathing.

 

OH, yes it does! Also you are changing your requirements and wording. Sorry for repetition but anyhow you earlier stated and required

Scripture certainly and specifically speaks of conception as life. Such was then clearly shown. It is sad you now refer to this as "Bible Story Time".



Webster:

Taking male and female to form the cell, as with conception. Not that Webster matters, but even they note such as a developing individual.

No I did not see your follow up post, with life only from breath. Sorry for this, but such does matter with the subject. As noted and pointed out, Genesis easily refutes that attempted argument, and then goes on to support conception as life! There is no confusion with that scripture in regards to the subject of conception!

God formed the first human. Adam was formed from the Earth and then God gave him life. The rest of us were conceived, carried, and then delivered. Scripture clearly shows profound adoration for the entire process. Conception of a Child, to it's delivered birth.



I don't know what else I could add. The best we could do is to pray about it. Ralph

 

Where? Can you show this scripture again?

 

Wow you couldn't be much wronger in your viewpoints.

 

In your opinion, perhaps. However, it is one thing to make an unsupported statement that I am wrong, versus making a lucid case with evidence to support your assertion. Without that, you are just talking out of your hat.
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"Oh Lord, you gave them eyes, but they cannot see... and neither can Superman, through lead." - Lex Luthor

 

Hello LeBuick.

A) You cannot even begin to count? How about I count for you! I said one time that anyone was throwing scripture out the window.
This after proper scripture was repeatedly put forth but ignored, or downplayed; only to have scripture put forth which did not even address, the direct issue. In an attempt to doubt life at conception. By saying life only begins with actual birthing then breathing of the child.
B) This is twisting of the scripture. By ignoring relevant scripture put forth and then utilizing scripture irrelevant to the debate. Of course Magnetic Poles then came back, to say he did not actually mean it. Which quite honestly could raise other questions.



As a note, that scripture does not even support that argument . As God "formed" Adam, whom was the first. The rest of us were born of "conception" where life begins and scripture most definitely supports.

Sure. And the Angel said

A son which was yet to be born of Elizabeth! This while the Angel was explaining to Mary she herself would soon have divine conception of life. The Angel uses the same blessed language when he speaks to Joseph about Mary.

Other such specific scripture on conception is available. In addition to excellent scripture other's have given. Human life begins at conception as indeed noted, and specifically, in the Bible. If you wish to say not then so be it. Ralphraying:

 

As President Reagan said, "There you go again." You missed the point totally. I NEVER said I believed that, only pointing out that scripture can be more readily interpreted to support the view of breath equals life, much more clearly than conception = human being. What other questions are raised, Ralph. Don't be vague. Out with it.

Again, you cited verses that say no such thing. Where is the other "specific scripture". You are confusing your interpretation of verses with what they actually say, and YOU are the one twisting them to mean what you want them to mean. We read them. They don't say what you claim they do.

The verses DO refer to conception prior to bearing a child....duh! Of course, that is a fact. That says nothing about every conception being a human being at that point. The outcome, if left to its own, of a natural conception is a baby in nine months! The question that remains unanswerable is when the fetus is a person. The challenge to find scripture supporting your view remains unanswered, as there are none.

 

The sequence in both versus say the child would be born and will be (future tense)called the Son of GOD.

Your argument being use of the word Son while the child is still in the woumb. I have no problem with that being a Son, however, I do not believe the Son lives until it is born into life.

When a mothers son dies, she says, "my Son is with GOD in heaven". She still has a son, her son is not living on earth, he is now living with the LORD. So yes, he is your son before birth and after death.

Now another difference here, these children were conceved of the Holy Spirit and not the sperm of a man. I contend we do not receive our spirit until birth. Looks like Christ and John received their at conception.

 

Hello Magnetic Poles,

Well I loved Reagan also but he would not say such in this case. As you most certainly advocated the "breath of life" argument!

1)There is no mistake you advocated breath of life!! My point with such, was it was irrelevant to the argument! Because the argument was if life begins at conception. Adam was the first and "formed" of earth by God, all the rest of us were "conceived" and carried by mothers.
2)I have not, nor know of anyone in this thread, who has given scripture which refers to life in the womb as "developed embryos". The scriptures I have presented is significantly beyond that! As God has great reverance for life from conception and within the womb. Refering to such as "child", "babe", "son", "that" and even by names.


Marcia responded to your advocation of "breath of Life".

Only then you came back to say you did not actually believe it. Though earlier you said you did. You also say

I did not initially see this reponse by you. However upon such, I did not blatanly accuse you of anything, rather hoped you would explain or even apologize to Marcia. As such comes across manipulative. At a minimum not earnest or sincere in nature.

You could have easily just pointed out how some could try and use the verse. Again though, such would be a poor thing to do and a very weak argument; because it is irrelevant in regards to conception, as life.

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The scripture is there whether you agree or not. Again God adores and refers to the the unborn in the womb as, "child", "babe", "son" and actual names etc. He even refers to the not-yet-conceived in the same manner! You wish to beleive he does not see the conceived or fetus as such? Only as nothing or a mass of cells? The whole process of human life is held in high adoration, from conception to actual birth, by God. This as repeatedly spoken throughout the entire Bible.

Do you have any scripture: Which says human conception is not the begining of human life, or living? Or that at any point from conception the "babe", "child", or "son" as God refers to it is not a person or anything valued? Or at any point from conception the "babe", "child", or "son" as God refers to it, does not have a soul or is not a being?

Because the scripture given irrefutably supports all this.

 

Ralph, if you will read the entire thread, you will see that I did not advocate the position of breath = life, only that the Bible makes a better case for that than it does for zygote = baby. You are either purposefully misrepresenting what I said, or you just don't understand rhetorical discussion.

As for your verses, you can repeat yourself until Satan calls for snowplows, but you have not provided even a single verse to support your view, as has been repeatedly pointed out. Once more time before I give up on you...
Conception CAN lead to a baby...in fact it is a requirement. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that it is a baby at the moment a sperm penetrates an ovum.

 

With all due respect, you are answering my question by saying how we know something is wrong. You are not answering the question as to why abortion is wrong. Since you do not view aborting the unborn baby as murder, why do you think abortion is wrong?

As for having a conscience that lets us know there is right and wrong -- yes, Romans tells us that. But when we are believers, we have more than that -- we have God's word (which we know to be true) and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So Christians have even more reason to do the right thing.

I think the Bible answers this question, in the OT, at least. But this is not the topic. The question I asked you is, why do you think abortion is wrong if it not murder?

Sorry, you are wrong here. Most people on breathing machines are not just being assisted in breathing; the machine is breathing for them. If the machine was turned off, they would be unable to breathe. So why is it not murder to turn off the breathing machine if it's not murder to cut off the oxygen from an unborn baby?

 

This thread is past the 10-page limit, so it will be closed no sooner than 4:00 a.m. ET by one of the moderators.

Lady Eagle,
Moderator

 

Your mistaken LeBuick; I pointed out numerous and significant things in those versus, which I shortened because of previous listing. 1) One is where Mary is told of her future and Divine conception. 2) Another speaks of Elizabeth who is pregnant with indeed a “son” as referred to. 3) Then later when Mary is pregnant with “child” and as gloriously proclaimed “that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit”. Speaking of Jesus of course.

These scriptures and more show great reverence for life, from conception and within the womb. With the Lord referring to such in the womb as "child", "babe", "son", etc, and even by their future names. Indeed, the Lord shows great reverence for life before conception, after conception/during pregnancy, and after actual birthing.

LeBuick?? The previous answer suffices but again; God refers to the life within the womb as “son”, “child”, and “babe” etc; But you do not accept such as being alive or revered? Not until it is birthed? Sincerely, I would ask you to re-think that and to pray upon it. I will also.

God reveres life in the womb and warns never to harm a woman.

LeBuick??

1) The virgin Mary, is the only who received divine conception by God. Matt.1:35 "..The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.”


2) Elizabeth and her husband Zacharias, never had children because Elizabeth was unable to. She was “barren”, as the Bible denotes women as such throughout. The Angel told Zacharias they would conceive a child which Zacharias did not believe. Because He and Elizabeth were now old in addition to her being unable. He was temporarily punished for doubting, but they did conceive.

A) This says nothing of divine conception with God, as the case with Mary. Or that which was conceived in her was “of the Holy Spirit”. The Lord simply made it so they could conceive, as he had done many times before her and for others.(Scripture below).

B) This says nothing about the soul or spirit, as your applying, in us only receiving life with such at birth. It just says John will be full of the Holy Ghost as with righteousness, grace, prophecy etc. We know we have a soul or spirit! But I cannot find anything that says we only receive such at actual birth. Thus it must be something we are, or gain upon our parents conception, or as God said he knew us before we were! Such would seem to discredit the notion we only receive our spirit at actual birth, but I ask anyone for scripture on this. Also there are plenty who deny God their entire life and go to hell for such. Thus the Holy Spirit was not in them but we know they have a soul!
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Gen. 29:31-30:23 “When the Lord saw that Leah was unloved, He opened her womb; but Rachel was barren. So Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben;………..(30:1)Now when Rachel saw that she bore Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister, and said to Jacob, “Give me children, or else I die!” And Jacobs anger was aroused against Rachel, and he said “Am I in the place of God, who has withheld from you the fruit of the womb?”………(30:17) And God listened to Leah, and she conceived and bore Jacob a fifth son………(30:22)Then God remembered Rachel, and God listened to her and opened her womb. And she conceived and bore a son…”


1Sam1 Read the story of Hannah who could not conceive, and the shame she endured because “the Lord had closed her womb” . Until the Lord blessed her from prayer and she “conceived and bore a son, and called his name Samuel”.

Gen. 20:17-18 “So Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abimelech, his wife, and his female servants. Then they bore children; for the Lord had closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife.”


Psalm 127:3-5 “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them;”


In Christ. Ralph

 

I did not expect "rhetorical" debate or discussion on a Christian forum. When straightforward, scriptural, and in good conscience debate was occurring. I did not feel you acted completely as such with those posts. Obviously Marcia saw it as such with her initial confusion also. If you cannot see this do a poll to see how others would take such. For me it is at this time no big deal.


It does no good for us at this time to debate or argue our views on "when life begins" or "when is a zygote a person" etc. We can only continue to search for the truth in Christ. I applaud your wanting to help others but there are other moralistic ways than through stem cell research. Which I and others consider wrong in God's eye's.

Have a good Magnetic Poles. Ralph

 

We shall agree to disagree. You have a good day as well, Ralph.



MP

 

I was clearly wrong about John and apologize for my mistake.

I think the rest boils down to this sentence, you are saying GOD shows reverence for life before conception. I say he shows reverence for a future life before conception. I don't believe the life is truly given to the parents until birth.

I agree, GOD as well as man gives reverence to a future life in the womb, that they will be a son or daughter. I also agree GOD as well as man has great expectations for said future life while in the womb. And GOD is never wrong.

God knows what you will be before you are conceived so by him saying Son does not mean he is saying you are alive. He is saying you will (future tense) have a son and this son etc.... In each case I showed you the wording is a son will be born.

I just believe one is born into life and not conceived. Sorry if that bothers you but that is the only difference in our thinking and there is no biblical proof one way or tthe other.

Marcia, ending a future life is wrong. The baby does not have to be born to be of value to GOD or man. We love them even as we rub mommys tummy... :love2:

Because of complications my sister was aborted at 6 months. This was in the 60's and the choicees were the child or the mother and the child. She lives to this day. This makes me think if GOD has intentions of you living then man can't override his plans. Deliberately trying to override GOD or trying to be god is obviously wrong.

 

Which is knowledge GOD gave man and man is using this knowledge for good.

 

Closed per previous warning. LE