preacher4truth
Active Member
So basically what you are stuggling with is the Omniscient God who 'permitted' this to happen -or- you don't believe He knew this would happen.
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...but what of His Holiness?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
So basically what you are stuggling with is the Omniscient God who 'permitted' this to happen -or- you don't believe He knew this would happen.
So, did God ordain the death of His Son, or did He not?
Their argument is full of holes.
1. It effectually requires that there be a moral standard that transcends God to which God can be held accountable for the definition of His very essence.
2. It effectually requires that information can be created in a vacuum apart from the ultimate decree of God (the evil actions of creatures)--that both God and man (at least) create ex nihilo--and that this phenomenon is a necessary condition upon God for how He could have created the universe based on 1. above.
Instead of facing the "problem of evil" head on and accepting what the Bible clearly reveals, however difficult and solemn to our rationale it is, people just plain like to define their theology based on their emotions.
How many people I have observed have become atheists because of the "problem of evil"!
How many Christian/atheist debates I have observed where the atheist declares that the "problem of evil" is what caused them to question the inspiration of the Bible and eventually loathe the idea of a God!
If you try to explain away the "problem of evil" with an atheist by trying to detach God entirely from it you will get burned.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Is this the way an apostle of God would answer the question?
Q. If there is a God and man does not have an autonomous, libertarian free will, then God is responsible for evil. How can anyone justly be held accountable for their actions?
A. Dude, you got me there!
No! Paul raises the very question that his statements demanded and then answers it in a way that reflects the proper perspective of Creator-creation relationship.
Q. If man cannot resist God's will, then he cannot be responsible for his actions.
A. Oh man, who are you to judge God? Upon what basis can the created thing put the Creator on trial and rightly judge him by asking "Why did you make me like this?"
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"Oh, man, who are you to answer back to God"? This is Christian apologetics at its finest. Let the atheist whine and complain about you God being a "monster" and all that. Without the God of the Bible, upon what basis can the atheist make a moral argument against God from his own moral relativism?
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Is this the way an apostle of God would answer the question?
Q. If there is a God and man does not have an autonomous, libertarian free will, then God is responsible for evil. How can anyone justly be held accountable for their actions?
A. Dude, you got me there!
No! Paul raises the very question that his statements demanded and then answers it in a way that reflects the proper perspective of Creator-creation relationship.
Q. If man cannot resist God's will, then he cannot be responsible for his actions.
A. Oh man, who are you to judge God? Upon what basis can the created thing put the Creator on trial and rightly judge him by asking "Why did you make me like this?"
...
"Oh, man, who are you to answer back to God"? This is Christian apologetics at its finest. Let the atheist whine and complain about you God being a "monster" and all that. Without the God of the Bible, upon what basis can the atheist make a moral argument against God from his own moral relativism?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
There is no doubt that God created evil. God created Satan the most evil of all of God's creatures. To deny it is to place it on the same level as God as if to say it has always existed.
Sin is not authored by God although sin is a by product of Him creating the Law. The Law and man's inability to keep it is what brought sin in to the world. With out the Law none of us would have ever known sin. Satan sinned seemingly before the Law existed which tells us that the Law has existed as long or nearly as long as his first creation.
When men sin it is they who entertain the idea of that particular sin. So it is man who authors it each time a sin is committed. Sin came into the world when man committed it and vanishes away once he is forgiven. It has no physical substance. Yet it's damage is both physical and spiritual.
I believe the whole reason of the scheme of this is that man has a choice and God gave us all this choice. It's the only way I can makes sense of it.
God does not lead us in to sin there fore He has no part in it. He does not predestine us to sin. This would make God responsible. Sin is between the person who sins and the Law.
God has a plan for everyone on this planet. Yet His plan for us has requirements for them to come about. In Eph 1:5&11 we are predestined to be adopted and according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
This for the saved only no where are the lost ever predestined.
MB
it was the Will of the father to send forth His son, in order to die and atobe on behalf of his people , but God also [redestined to use the 'free wills" pf those wicked persons to kill off the Son of God!
The Lord knowing ALL possible outcomes, decided to have it exactly as happened!
God created the creation "perfect", best possible way, so whatever happened after that was the result of satan and Adam choosing to act in rebellion and sin towards God!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
You haven't defined what you mean by the word 'ordain,' so I'll answer it this way:
I believe God determined (brought to pass with certainty) the death, burial and resurrection of Himself (HE laid down his own life). That is one of the unique aspects of this supernatural work of redemption...IT WAS GOD'S ACTIVE WORKING.
Now, if EVERYTHING, absolutely every other evil that EVER happens is likewise predetermined to come to pass with the same measure of supernatural certainty as the Redemption of mankind then what makes Redemption uniquely divine? If every book written was sovereignly brought to pass by God what makes the scripture uniquely 'OF GOD.'
This is the mistake Calvinists often make. They PRESUME that if God can be shown to sovereignly intervene to bring about the Redemption of mankind or the inspiration of scripture that it somehow proves He likewise brings about every other event, intent or choice in all of human history? It does not follow.
glfredrick
New Member
Have you resorted to human logic to figure out divinely revealed doctrines?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I believe what I stated can be substantiated by the text. Why? Do you have an argument to present?
glfredrick
New Member
Just asking, and when you "substantiate by the text" are you causing the text to be used in such a fashion as, "See, the Bible agrees with me..."?
Almost seems like it once in a while. You cherry pick certain passages to overlay your logical approach, then wonder when others who actually exegete in context see things differently.
glfredrick
New Member
That's it...
You made the argument yourself when you resorted to a logical conclusion versus an exegetical response.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
What needs to be 'exegeted' here Guy? I agree with Ares regarding God's 'ordination' or 'determination' to lay down his own life for the redemption of the world. I just argued that proving God had a uniquely supernatural role in the redemption of man by choosing to lay down his own life in no way proves or even suggests that God likewise brings all things to pass in like manner. If you have any passage to suggest otherwise I'd be glad to 'exegete' it for you.
Where do you find the logic in anything he has stated thus far?
So God ordained the fall to happen in order to have the greater glory from/of the Cross to come to pass?
If yes, Did he ordain the Cross in response to what he knew adam would chose to do, or did God cause Adam to do as he did?
What has occurred on earth was the plan for eternity. There was no plan "A" that said if sin does not enter the world God would glorify His Son and be glorified in Him a certain way, and a plan "B" that said they would be glorified in another way if sin does enter.
It was always to be this way.
It was always to be this way.
So did Adam have real free will to make his moral decision than?
