...but what of His Holiness?

[jonathan.borland]

Nothing exists outside of God's knowledge or control......or God is not God. not one molecule exists or moves unless God has ordained it to be so.
There is no random.

One word in bold below would make your statement more precise in my opinion, which I think is exemplified by the whole of Scripture.

Nothing exists outside of God's knowledge or ultimate control......or God is not God. not one molecule exists or moves unless God has ordained it to be so.

There is no random.

True. Every effect has a cause whether seen or not. So what caused the effect of sin in Satan and Adam? Where did it originate?

 

[Aaron]

That is debatable but inconsequential because the result is the same. Either way, the Lord said of him, "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you."

And... "You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.' I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

These passage show that the corruption was not created or made by God, but that it was 'found.' Where did this pride and desire to become like God originate? In the creator or the created? You can't...you won't answer that question and we all know why.

:laugh: I have been answering that question.

So again, I start with Christ's universal principle concerning the integrity of a man. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.

Adam was created good.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
Adam sinned.

One conclusion: Adam was corrupted.

 

[Amy.G]

So again, I start with Christ's universal principle concerning the integrity of a man. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.

Adam was created good.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
Adam sinned.

One conclusion: Adam was corrupted.

So Adam wasn't created good. Except that the bible says he was.

 

[jonathan.borland]

:laugh: I have been answering that question.

So again, I start with Christ's universal principle concerning the integrity of a man. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.

Adam was created good.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.
Adam sinned.

One conclusion: Adam was corrupted.

Corrupted by what/whom? Have you ever answered this? It's been asked several times in this thread?

 

[Aaron]

Nope. Corrupted by what isn't the point. The point is that corruption preceded sin.

 

[Aaron]

So Adam wasn't created good. Except that the bible says he was.

He was created good. He was not created incorruptible.

 

[Skandelon]

Corrupted by what/whom? Have you ever answered this? It's been asked several times in this thread?

He can't answer this question. If he does it destroys his view. If he answers "God" then he clearly contradicts scriptures teaching regarding God's holiness. And if he answers "man" then he has to admit that man has the ability to originate evil intent making his view of deterministic sovereignty crumble into non-sense. He will keep dodging this question regardless of how many times you ask it.

 

[Amy.G]

He was created good. He was not created incorruptible.

I agree, but what is the cause of his corruption? You said he was corrupted before he sinned. How is this possible? How can a person who is created good be corrupt before he sins?

 

[Aaron]

I agree, but what is the cause of his corruption? You said he was corrupted before he sinned. How is this possible? How can a person who is created good be corrupt before he sins?

Contrary to the cavils of Scandal, there is an answer. It's given in the form of a straightforward maxim in one of Paul's letters, and the narrative thereof is in Genesis.

But who or what corrupted Adam is not the issue at present. The issue is the obstinate refusal on the part of some to submit to the universal principles laid down by Christ.

Can a good tree bring forth evil fruit? Scandal et al say yes. Christ says no.

 

[Iconoclast]

It was merely a speculation of what you believed. It appears I was wrong. Sorry. So how did sin get into Satan and Adam? If I understand your view correctly, God put it there, no? You say he ordained it but did not author it. If he ordained it but did not author it, where did it come from? Please enlighten me.

Jonathan,

So how did sin get into Satan and Adam? If I understand your view correctly, God put it there, no?[/QUOTE]

No.......Whatever the answer is.....in NO WAY can a Thrice Holy God put sin anywhere.He cannot sin..He has nothing to do with sin.

We must start there ...as that is clearly revealed in scripture

that being said.....we see if we can get an idea from scripture.....revealed truth belongs to us......God reveals what we need to know....some things are not revealed now;

29The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

The best i have read on this is here:
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf


It suggests to me that created beings do not have the capacity to maintain "positive Holiness"...in other words.....that which alone belongs to the Creator.[ie, the absence of light leaves darkness]. so to me it would seem like created beings cannot maintain or sustain this Holiness without God glorifying us...which is part of his redemptive promise to the ELECT.... I do not like to speculate beyond this kind of thought ,as I believe that our human reasoning comes short of God's revealed word...so i prefer to deal with scripture itself, rather than speculation about scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

Contrary to the cavils of Scandal, there is an answer. It's given in the form of a straightforward maxim in one of Paul's letters, and the narrative thereof is in Genesis.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I truly do not understand what you mean. I cannot wrap my head around it. You are going to have to help me out.

 

[Skandelon]

Contrary to the cavils of Scandal, there is an answer. It's given in the form of a straightforward maxim in one of Paul's letters, and the narrative thereof is in Genesis.

But who or what corrupted Adam is not the issue at present. .

Yeah, because we know you always stay right on topic.

Just answer the question.

Can a good tree bring forth evil fruit? Scandal et al say yes. Christ says no.

How do you know a false prophet from a real prophet (bad tree or good tree)? By their deeds/teachings (fruits). That it the question Jesus is answering when speaking of the parable of good/bad trees. I has nothing to do with Adam.

But even if it did you already admitted Adam was created good and become corrupted. Now you are being asked how? Who or what corrupted him?

John Piper says he can't answer this question and I doubt you can either. That is because the answer is "FREE WILL."

 

[DaChaser1]

I almost agree with you...

Two differences...

First, God had to allow that to happen or it would not have happened, but that does not take away the fact that choice WAS available in FREE Adam and FREE Satan.

Second, we no longer have the same freedom as did Adam. He is the cause of our separation from God and ever after Adam we are separated from God -- sin -- that only Christ can remove. Our "sins" stem from our separation but we are already separated before we commit the first act of sin that we recognize as such.

God HAD to allow for those two to commit sin, but He also would have already ordained the "final solution" to that problem that sin created, that was to be cured by the coming of the Messiah to die upon the Cross!
That was not a reaction to their sin, but a response to it,as greater would be the sure then the disease!

problem with Skan and others holding to his reasonng is much, if not all what they hold to ONLY works IF we had same will as Adam had, but NONE of us do since the Fall!