But you have come to Mount Zion.

[asterisktom]

Hebrews 12:22-23

"But you have come to mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"

"Have come". Perfect tense. But there is a whole blessed present reality in that past occurrence.

 

[kyredneck]

....."Have come". Perfect tense. But there is a whole blessed present reality in that past occurrence.

AMEN BROTHER!

'....for joy of the LORD is your strength' Neh 8:10

....and that is a present reality, NOT something yet in the future.

 

[Iconoclast]

http://biblecommenter.com/hebrews/12-22.htm:thumbs:

type in Hebrews 12:22-24 on this site and see some additional commentary on it

 

[asterisktom]

AMEN BROTHER!

'....for joy of the LORD is your strength' Neh 8:10

....and that is a present reality, NOT something yet in the future.

Amen to that! It is strange that such a pithy, rich promise like that would seem to be buried in Nehemiah. It sounds like something John or James might have said.

 

[asterisktom]

http://biblecommenter.com/hebrews/12-22.htm:thumbs:

type in Hebrews 12:22-24 on this site and see some additional commentary on it

There are some good comments in that link. JFB summed it up well:

22. are come-Greek, "have come near unto" (compare De 4:11). Not merely, ye shall come, but, ye have already come.

Wesley's notes here - if one did not know he wrote them - might have been confused for a Calvinist for some of his observations!

 

[Iconoclast]

Earthly type/Heavenly reality

What RC"s have called palm sunday, Mt21 .... The King was coming to Zion.
David ,in type took the stronghold of Zion.
Jesus in reality came to the earthly Zion,and was mostly rejected except for the elect remnant.
Jesus has now ascended to the Heavenly Zion,Heavenly Jerusalem.
We are made citizens by New Birth. [Phil 3:20]
On the last day we assemble with all saints from all time.We are to live accordingly by God's grace.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I personally believe that the Hebrew Christians when they did not forsake the assemblying of themselves together as the manner of some (Heb. 10:25) but assembled in the New Testament church they came to Mount Zion just as the Old Testament Israel when they had camped at Mount Sinai came into the presence of God and angels.

Such were not yet in heaven but only "enrolled in heaven." When the people of God come together in the assembly it is called "the house of God" and "the temple of God" and therefore God is present in their midst along with angels (1 Cor. 11:10; Eph. 3:10). There are really no empty pews if we had eyes to see. It is this same assembly that the writer goes on to speak of in chapter 13 where there is an "altar" and offerings that the unregenerate and Christ rejecting Jew had no right to.

 

[jaigner]

Hebrews 12:22-23

"But you have come to mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"

"Have come". Perfect tense. But there is a whole blessed present reality in that past occurrence.

YES!!! The theological reality of inaugurated eschatology. Beautiful!!! Talk about blessed hope!

 

[Dr. Walter]

I don't beleive this text refers to any future church or assembly but rather to the presence of God and heaven when a New Testament church assembles every Sunday. "We HAVE come" not we "will" come. Paul told the church at Corinth that they were a "temple" of the Holy Spirit. Paul told Timothy that the kind of church were men ordained to the ministry serve (1 Tim. 3:1-13) is the "house of God" (1 Tim.3:15) and therefore God is present here and now.

In 1 Cor. 11:10 Paul tells the women in the church at Corinth that angels were observing them and I believe the context has to do with the church service.

In Ephesians 3:10 Paul tells the church at Ephesus that God has chosen the assembly to reveal the mysteries of God to angels.

Heaven attends the assembling of the saints.

YES!!! The theological reality of inaugurated eschatology. Beautiful!!! Talk about blessed hope!

 

[kyredneck]

I don't beleive this text refers to any future......

What's your thoughts on the city of Rev 21? Future or present reality?

 

[asterisktom]

What's your thoughts on the city of Rev 21? Future or present reality?

I won't answer for Dr. Walter, but for me the response would have to be "present reality". I had written a few days ago (here, I think?) while doing my research for the article on Isaiah 60 that there were about 6 cross-references from that chapter to Rev. 21. The Isaiah passages require a "present reality" fulfillment, thus the Rev. 21 chapter - including the city - is also a present reality.

But that's just me : )

 

[Dr. Walter]

Of course this city presently exists as it "comes down" out of heaven in Revelation 21:1. However, this city does not represent a present reality ON EARTH.

Furthermore, not all the "saved" live inside this New Jerusalem when it does come down (Rev. 21:24). This necessary means that the city is not synomous with salvation but represents something in addition to salvation.

I believe that "something in addition to salvation" presently exists under the metaphorial language of an "espoused virgin" (2 Cor. 11:2) that some day will be presented to Christ.

I won't answer for Dr. Walter, but for me the response would have to be "present reality". I had written a few days ago (here, I think?) while doing my research for the article on Isaiah 60 that there were about 6 cross-references from that chapter to Rev. 21. The Isaiah passages require a "present reality" fulfillment, thus the Rev. 21 chapter - including the city - is also a present reality.

But that's just me : )