glfredrick
New Member
What Scripture?
Oh, the couple of verses that Jerry used to say, "See, even God agrees with my own Pelagian doctrines about the goodness of mankind." :laugh:
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By One Man's Disobedience Many Were Made Sinners
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
What Scripture?
Oh, the couple of verses that Jerry used to say, "See, even God agrees with my own Pelagian doctrines about the goodness of mankind." :laugh:
glfredrick
New Member
He is saying -- without saying it -- that everyone around here EXCEPT himself, Jerry, and a couple of others who have the same Pelagian doctrines, are LOST.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
The reason all men die spiritually is BECAUSE all have sinned.
In order to die spiritually as a result of one's own sin that person has to be alive spiritually. That means that no one comes out of the womb spiritually dead.
You do not even understand the "aorist" tense:
"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time" (Blue Letter Bible).
Your interpretation depends on a tense that speaks of a "past" action but the "aorist" tense is considered without regard for past, present, or future time.
Neither do you. The punctillar action is a COMPLETED Action and the Aorist tense in the INDICATIVE MOOD can refer to PAST COMPLETED ACTION.
Romans 5:12 and the words "have sinned" is found in the INDICATIVE MOOD.
However, you theory would demand the FUTURE tense.
"In its temporal relations action may be defined as either past, present, or future. In Greek these distinctions are involved only in the indicative mood." - Dana & Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament.
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plain_n_simple
Active Member
Doesn't spiritualy dead simply mean separated from God?
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Daniel Wallace (GGBB p. 564) argues for a category he calls “proleptic aorist,” in which he claims, “the aorist indicative can be used to describe an event that is not yet past as though it were already completed.”
Let us look at the following verse:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).
The Greek word translated "have sinned" is in the same exact tense and mood as the Greek word translated "have sinned" at Romans 5:12.
So are you saying that all sinned in Adam and it is that sin that comes short of the glory of God?
Let us look at the following verse:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).
The Greek word translated "have sinned" is in the same exact tense and mood as the Greek word translated "have sinned" at Romans 5:12.
So are you saying that all sinned in Adam and it is that sin that comes short of the glory of God?
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First, you misquote the verse.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Second, this verse is not speaking of spiritual death, but physical death. The theme of 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection of our physical bodies, read and see. So, you abuse this verse by pulling it out of context to say something it is not saying.
Third, if you are born dead, then how can you die? Can a corpse die? This verse does not say "For as in Adam all are dead" as you interpret it, it says "die". Someone who is born dead cannot die, only a living person or being has the ability to die.
This may be one of the most abused verses in all of scripture.
convicted1
Guest
and BINGO was his name-o.......
convicted1
Guest
All men are physically born in Adam...in the realm of sin and death.....
Only the spiritually born are in Christ....we call them the elect because that is how God speaks of them in His word:thumbsup::thumbsup:
(Joh 8:44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
That verse just does not seem to fit with your theory does it?
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Yes it is, and your exposition is an example of abuse.
If your exposition had any truth then why did Paul even say "in Adam"? If your exposition were correct he could have said "all men die" period! The prepositional phrase "in Adam" has nothing to do with your exposition and interpretation of death does it, however, it has plenty to do with Paul's as Paul continues in this chapter to point out the same two men as in Romans 5:12-19 except in this chapter Jesus is called the "last Adam" and "second man"!!!
All of this does not fit your interpretation. Your interpretation has no room for a "Second man" or a "LAST Adam" because according to your interpretation those are meaningless terms which have no practical application because you view every individual man distinct and isolated from Adam or Christ in regard to their own death or nature.
If all men are not "in Adam" then Paul should have simply omitted "in Adam" altogether because it would not make any difference in regard to your interpretation would it????
Your interpretation is OBVIOUSLY wrong because physical death (which is the context) is attributed to all mankind because they are "in Adam" in regard to their human nature and in regard to spiritual death which was passed down to all men because "by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many BE DEAD."
All men do die physically because of Adam's sin, but God says the son shall not bear his father's iniquity, and every man shall die for his own sin (Eze 18). God would be breaking his own law if you are correct.
Winman please don`t use that verse out of context. Read the verses before. It is speaking of crimes of murder, rape, cruelty, etc. If a wicked father has a son who has done no wrong, why should he be associated with the cruel and wicked crimes of his father. The answer is, he shouldn`t be. That is the meaning of that verse. Why it is so misused I don`t know. Just read the context before you so abuse Scripture.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Winman, you are not misusing this text as DHK falsely assumes.:thumbsup: DHK has absolutely no right to interpret this verse with any such narrow confines as he in vain attempts to. I know full well why he would like to limit this verse, because it stands at direct antipodes with Augustinian original sin. The truth of the verse still stands in spite of the convenient slant he tries to employ upon it.
It is not me taking this passage out of context or abusing it, but you.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
This chapter is not speaking of physical death but spiritual death. Are you trying to convince me that God is saying in vss. 21-22 that if a man goes around murdering people but then repents that the people should let him live? Nonsense. It is saying if the man repents his sins will be forgiven him. The man would still be executed for his crimes, but his soul would live. This passage is speaking of eternal punishment, not temporal, notice in vs. 24 it says a man that has sinned, "in them" shall he die. This is the exact language Jesus used when he said that if we do not believe he is the Christ, we shall die "in your sins"
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
The whole chapter is refuting original sin. The Jews themselves had a proverb that if the fathers ate sour grapes, the children's teeth would be set on edge. God says this is not true, but every "soul" shall die for his own sins. God does not unjustly punish the child for the sins of his father or vice versa. It is you and others that contradict God's express commands to hold to Augustine's error.
It is not me abusing scripture, but you.
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(Eze 18:4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(Eze 18:10) If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
(Eze 18:11) And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
(Eze 18:12) Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
(Eze 18:14) Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
(Eze 18:16) Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
(Eze 18:19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
(Eze 18:20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Read the context. It speaks only of physical life; not spiritual.
Nonsense. First of all, God uses the word "soul". He is speaking of eternal death, not temporal. Again, God says if the wicked man turns from his sin, his transgressions shall not be mentioned. This is speaking of the forgiveness of sins, something the people are not able to do. But when a man who is righteous (like a child), turns and does evil, his righteousness will not be mentioned, but IN his sins he shall die.
Only God has the ability to forgive sins. This is speaking of the eternal, not temporal. The fact that sins like stealing, murder, or adultery are mentioned does not prove this is speaking of the civil law. Do you really believe God is telling the people that if a man committed multiple murders (or even one), that if he repents he should not be punished for his crime? Nonsense.
If you did not hold to Augustine's error, you would easily see this passage is saying every man shall die (eternally) for his own sins, and that God does not impute the sins of the father to the son, or anyone else.
Believe what you want, but I will never accuse God of unjustly punishing someone for someone else's sin as you believe.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Just so there is no confusion DHK as to the end of such wicked persons, here is a passage that makes it clear for all of us to see and receive admonition from.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
That is not just physical death DHK.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
That is not just physical death DHK.
It is both. Those in the lake of fire will have bodies just like those enjoying eternal life. Those who stand before the Great White Throne will stand there in a resurrection body. There are two resurrections, and they aren't spirit resurrections.