C.H. Spurgeon, A defense of Calvinism.

[Dale-c]

It is God who makes the difference,

Ahh, so you are at least somewhat calvinistic then?
In that you believe that God makes the decision? It is God that makes the difference between those who accept the gospel and those who don't?

If you believe it is mans decision that makes the difference, please let me know where I misunderstood you

Thanks,

Dale

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

God makes the differece and the discision. God choose to save whosoever believes in His Son.

If we made the differce it would be us on the cross and dieing with no redeemer.

If we paid the price for our sins then it would be death and there is no salvation there. Do you see how God made the difference and not man. We are saved by grace through faith in the word of God and it is Him and His word that makes a difference in our lives.

This way we can believe that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we are the messenger's.

If they walk away from the grace of God they can only blame themselves , because God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is not the work for our salvation, faith is trusting and believing in God and His word.

No matter how you look at it, we must accept a gift free or not in order to receive it. Praise goes to the Maker not the accepter

Who is greater and deserves all the glory the messenger, the one who accepts the message or the one who did all the work to make the message happen and sent out the messenger?

I am not a calvinist or an arminian, there a place in the middle where the truth lies.

I have no problem with calvinism, it is one side of the coin nor do i disagree with the other side of the coin that God does love the world and through the Gospel whosoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life. I am not arminian at all. We are save by grace through faith not works.

Whosever can be saved, but without faith that God is giving us through His word. We cannot be saved.

Do not walk away like the young rich ruler did. He was drawn to Jesus, he was chosen by Jesus and yet walked away.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Jude 1Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[Dale-c]

God choose to save whosoever believes in His Son.

So who chooses who will be in the whosoever will rather than the whosoever won't?
I want to make sure I understand you correctly?
Who makes the choice on an individual basis?
Does man decide to choose God?
Or Does God first choose to save that individual?

Please stay with me here, either I am not understanding or you are not being clear.
Either way, let's both be patient and we will hopefully figure this out, even if we don't agree!

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Accourding to the scripture it is God who chooses to save whosever believes.

It wasn't the discision of man or there will but the will of God and His discision to save whosoever believes.

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

It is anybody. Who are we to question God and His will and His discison to save them.

 

[Rippon]

No , Ps. , the Lord had specific individuals in mind -- "anybody" is too nebulous and not biblical .

And the ones "that would believe" are the ones He caused to believe .

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and thnat He loved the world that He sent His Son, say's that is not true.

Whosever is anyone.

God wanted to gather them like hen gathers His chicks.

It wasn't God who wasn't willing but them

 

[psalms109:31]

Biblical

What you are saying is not biblecal, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. It is anybody if you refuse to believe or not.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowlege of the truth. I am not lying just like Paul wasn't.

 

[Dale-c]

You are still skirting around the question:
Who makes the difference in an individual? Why does one have a will to believe and the other does not?
Is it simply environment? Is that person better?
What? Why does one choose God and the other chooses himself?/

 

[Rippon]

Did he want those to be saved that were foreordained for condemnation ? Did the LORD desire to save Judas , Pharoah , Cain , the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah , the people of the world who perised in the flood ? Did He want to save those for whom the darkest blackness has been reserved forever ? No , He does not want the objects of His wrath to be saved . The LORD wants only those who were appoined [ ordaied] for eternal life to believe . Does He want those whose names are not inscribed on the Lamb's Book Of life to be saved ? No .

 

[Dale-c]

Does He want those whose names are not inscribed on the Lamb's Book Of life to be saved ? No .

That is true. Yet they are still commanded to repent but they won't/
It is their duty to repent. But they won't.
It is part of God's preceptive will that they repent, but not part of His decree.

 

[psalms109:31]

Before the cross

Before the cross , how God deals with them is how He will deal with, He will be just. We worship a just God.

I cannot worry about those before the cross. Let the dead bury the dead. All I can do is turn to God for them with prayer petition to Him.

After the cross is when the door was opened for the world and God made us the messenger of it.

God answers the question why some are saved and not. Because His word holds consequences To believe and be saved or not and be condemned This is His will. and His discision to do this.

You don't have to understand why, just believe that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Just a little faith. God will make it grow.

The door has been opened to the world and whosever can enter.

If we had faith in that scripture as big as a mustard seed, God will use it to reach more people.

We can move mountains by faith.

As the Father says' let your light shine before men and they will see our good deeds and they will praise our Father in heaven.

We have so little faith in God to save whosoever. We come up with all kinds of excuses.

Mine is not to question why some come and some don't, but to know God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and He has made us who believe the messenger.

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

About the Lambs book of life, we are playing out a our documentary movie that has already been completed. God has seen the movie many times If He didn't know who would believe He wouldn't be God

 

[Dale-c]

The door has been opened to the world and whosever can enter.

Perhaps they can but not all will. Some are dead in sins. They can't because there own sin prohibits them God must regenerate them first.

 

[psalms109:31]

Derad in Sins

We all our dead in sins, but we have the power of the Gospel. The words of Jesus is not His own but the Father who sent Him. His word is Spirit and life. Through the words of Jesus whosoever can believe. THe cross has not lost its power. Whosever can believe.

We have no excuse anymore not to come because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I am not lying nor was Paul.

 

[Rippon]

So if the LORD wants all ( in your definition each and every person , past present and future ) to be saved --- what a failure He is !

Go with the God of Scripture who has marked-out His elect ones before the world was created .

Christ is the one who is spoken of in Isaiah 53 . In the 11th verse it says : "After the suffering of his soul , he will see the light of life and be satisfied ..." ( NIV ) He accomplished what He set out to do on the cross . His work was done when He said : "It is finished" . He died for only those that He laid His life down for . He atoned for them and them alone . There was no hypothetical atonement . A number of things are missing in your understanding of the atonement . But in particular is the determination of the Lord . He set out with a definite plan . There was nothing fuzzy about what He set out to do . He does no waiting upon the will of feeble mortals .

He will justify many (v.11) . He bore the sin of many . Is "many" all ( as in each and every) ? Or is the word many --representative of a large number , but not inclusive of every member of the human race ?

 

[TCGreek]

So if the LORD wants all ( in your definition each and every person , past present and future ) to be saved --- what a failure He is !

Go with the God of Scripture who has marked-out His elect ones before the world was created .

Christ is the one who is spoken of in Isaiah 53 . In the 11th verse it says : "After the suffering of his soul , he will see the light of life and be satisfied ..." ( NIV ) He accomplished what He set out to do on the cross . His work was done when He said : "It is finished" . He died for only those that He laid His life down for . He atoned for them and them alone . There was no hypothetical atonement . A number of things are missing in your understanding of the atonement . But in particular is the determination of the Lord . He set out with a definite plan . There was nothing fuzzy about what He set out to do . He does no waiting upon the will of feeble mortals .

He will justify many (v.11) . He bore the sin of many . Is "many" all ( as in each and every) ? Or is the word many --representative of a large number , but not inclusive of every member of the human race ?

I appreciate so much your knowledge of the Word on these issues and how to give a Scriptural defense that is so often overlooked. A careful reading of Scripture reveals the truth.

The problem I see with those who continue to make those arguments, is their failure to move from text to theology and then back to text before they make their applications.

 

[David Lamb]

We all our dead in sins, but we have the power of the Gospel. The words of Jesus is not His own but the Father who sent Him. His word is Spirit and life. Through the words of Jesus whosoever can believe. THe cross has not lost its power. Whosever can believe.

We have no excuse anymore not to come because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I am not lying nor was Paul.

Taking your last point first, no one has suggested that you are lying. There is no such thing as a person with perfect understanding of God's Word, (at least not in this life), so all of us are bound to make mistakes, but a mistake is not a lie.

Secondly, for whom did Christ die? If you say, "For everyone," what do you think Jesus meant when He said to the Pharisees in John 10.14-15?

14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.​

and then to a group of Jews in John 10.26-29:

26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.​

Notice that He did not say, "You are not of my sheep because you do not believe," but "You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep." Not only that, but He says that "His sheep" have been given to Him by His Father.

 

[Allan]

So if the LORD wants all ( in your definition each and every person , past present and future ) to be saved --- what a failure He is !

maybe in your mind but God said exactly what He ment when He stated via the Holy Spirit through Paul. Spurgeon also believe it and spoke the same thing. God did not decree all men come to the knowledge of truth a be saved for ONLY then would God have failed. But that God desires Man to... God desired that Israel would listen and obey, but they did not. Did God fail? Of course not. Your logic has no basis from scripture. The same thing you accuse others of is seen in your own view. You don't see God the way the Bible declares Him.

Christ is the one who is spoken of in Isaiah 53 . In the 11th verse it says : "After the suffering of his soul , he will see the light of life and be satisfied ..." ( NIV ) He accomplished what He set out to do on the cross . His work was done when He said : "It is finished" .

Yes, but it is refering to the work of Christ which will be done, that it will be perfect and able to do all it is to accomplish. It refers to the application and culminated finished work of Christ.

He died for only those that He laid His life down for . He atoned for them and them alone . There was no hypothetical atonement .

Again not a biblical argument, and not something held by many historic Calvinists.

A number of things are missing in your understanding of the atonement .

I agree. When the atonement was offord up for ALL of the Nation of Israel, was ALL of the Nation of Israel saved/redeemed, or only those who believed/obeyed God regarding it.

But in particular is the determination of the Lord . He set out with a definite plan . There was nothing fuzzy about what He set out to do .

I agree.

He does no waiting upon the will of feeble mortals .

Again you are wrong. No man is saved unless he believes. Salvation does wait upon the will of feeble mortals, for untill they believe THEY ARE NOT SAVED.

He will justify many (v.11) . He bore the sin of many . Is "many" all ( as in each and every) ? Or is the word many --representative of a large number , but not inclusive of every member of the human race ?

It speaks SPECIFICALLY to those for who it has been applied to. The biblical form of atonement was to be made for all of Israel but not all would be saved. Look it up.You can not redefine the way God determind the Atonement to be. As it was in the OT by the Law, it was fulfilled in Christ under the Law. That the Perfect Lamb which was slain would be acceptable and suffient for all but applicable only to those who believe and are chosen of God.

 

[David Lamb]

maybe in your mind but God said exactly what He ment when He stated via the Holy Spirit through Paul. Spurgeon also believe it and spoke the same thing.

Spurgeon wrote and preached so prolifically that I have only read a small portion of his "output". I would be grateful if you could provide one or two instances where he says he believes that the LORD wants each and every person who has ever lived or will ever live to be saved. I know he was zealous for preaching the gospel to all, but that is not the same thing.

Again you are wrong. No man is saved unless he believes. Salvation does wait upon the will of feeble mortals, for untill they believe THEY ARE NOT SAVED.

All the Calvinists/believers in the Doctrines of Grace that I have ever come across (including Ripon, I imagine, although I cannot speak for him) would agree that no man is saved unless he believes. However, I repeat what I said in answer to Psalms 109.31, concerning John 10.26-29:

Notice that He did not say, "You are not of my sheep because you do not believe," but "You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep." Not only that, but He says that "His sheep" have been given to Him by His Father.​

 

[skypair]

concerning John 10.26-29:

Notice that He did not say, "You are not of my sheep because you do not believe," but "You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep." Not only that, but He says that "His sheep" have been given to Him by His Father.​

"You do not believe [at this time]" would be more appropriate to the context though, right? He may have addressed some as hardened beyond salvation but surely not all who heard Him say this.

And do you realize that the Father only gives into the Son's kingdom those who are JUSTIFIED in God first? That's Col 1:13 -- "Who [Father, 1:12] hath delivered us from the power of darkness [justified us], and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

Justification precedes sanctification. More specifically, one must have "the righteousness of God" before one can have the sanctification of the Spirit.

skypair

 

[Allan]

Spurgeon wrote and preached so prolifically that I have only read a small portion of his "output". I would be grateful if you could provide one or two instances where he says he believes that the LORD wants each and every person who has ever lived or will ever live to be saved. I know he was zealous for preaching the gospel to all, but that is not the same thing.

Here is an excert I did just days ago in another thread done by Dale:

Spurgeon stated in his sermon "Salvation by knowing the Truth" Regarding the text

"God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."—1 Timothy 2:3, 4.

He stated:
...
You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "...All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth....

My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

You state:

All the Calvinists/believers in the Doctrines of Grace that I have ever come across (including Ripon, I imagine, although I cannot speak for him) would agree that no man is saved unless he believes. However, I repeat what I said in answer to Psalms 109.31, concerning John 10.26-29:

So then regardless of if God regenerates before saving faith is excersized, that faith must be excersized at the choice of the creature BEFORE the benifits of salvation are appropriated. Salvation is dependent upon mans choice on either side of the C/A debate. That is all I was getting at.
As for John 10 (it is one of my favorites :thumbs: )
However what you are quoting IS NOT a piece concerning salvation but obedience due to them being or not being His sheep. If you will note:

Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

- They already are His sheep and know His voice (ownership - which until salvation we are children of Wrath), they will follow no one else (it is a decision of commitment to one master), they will follow Him where ever He leads (relationship and trust already established).
All of the verbs here show not past nor future tense but a active present tense as shown above.
Also they are already set in His hand, and also in his fathers hand where they can not be 'pluck' (present tense active)
But here is the kicker - What makes them HIS sheep. Look at verses 9-11:

Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

The man must enter, this action is done by the subject.
AND IT IS ONLY THEN - the man goes in and out to find pasture (Identified as a sheep). Remember also that this sheep is specifically referencing the Jews and the "other sheep" yet future are the gentiles.

I appolgize, but I must log off. I have been up for 43 hours and my thoughts running together, and much of the time I think I am typeing, I wake up. :laugh:

If this later peice doesn't make much sence just don't worry about it. I will come back and give you an answer more proper.