Called

Romans 1: 1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God...

I Timothy 1: 12. And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry...

I remember "my call."

rufus

 

Murph***I will accept your opinion regarding poor exegesis but concerning your charge that I have deliberately misused scripture to attack someone I will again advise you to refrain from accusations you cannot prove. I will list the verses I used so as to show my motivation for using them:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

If Bibleboy wanted to know if anyone truly had seen a vision he could ask instead of declaring that they did not.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

I believe his doubt about the situation negated his ability to receive and accept the truth on the matter, this is why I mentioned this passage

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
James 1:5-8

Call it poor exegesis if you will that is your opinion but having used James 1 I will stand by my post.

Murph

 

Murph,

After reading your post explaining your exegesis (as well as your PM), I believe I should respond.

Your explanation of your handling of the text demonstrates two things.

First, you did intend to attack Bibleboy's challenge to defend your approach biblically in the way that I originally understood it. You took a passage from the book of James that deals with one person seeking wisdom from God to bring him closer to spiritual maturity when he is lacking in that area. James taught that one who did not consistently demonstrate faith in God to supply that wisdom was unstable. You twisted that passage to suggest that whenever another person questions another person's statement of his spiritual experience that the "doubter" is unstable.

If you feel this exegesis issue is a matter of opinion, please explain the hermeneutic you used to arrive at your interpretation. I would settle for a single commentary that supplies an interpretation consistent with your interpretation. Failing that, I believe we have a simple case of whether or not one is able to apply a literal historical-grammatical hermeneutic to the passage.

Second, after seeing your explanation, I will admit that my use of the word "deliberate" may not be correct. If you will either admit that your interpretation was supplied in error out of haste or ignorance, OR that you reject a literal grammatical-historical hermeneutic, I will gladly apologize for my accusation. Failing one of those two actions on your part, I will be forced to conclude that you deliberately chose to take a passage out of context not suspecting that someone would call you on it.

 

Thank you all for the comments and testimony here. This has been helpful but I would like to ask another question.

If we say that this "call" is what can be described as a strong desire (I'm guessing much like what Jeremiah experienced [Jeremiah 20:9Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.]) then how can we know the source of this desire?

Can we say that God will direct us to serve Him while Satan would not direct us to serve God?

Also, can we ever make a distinction between a desire to serve that is given from God and a desire to serve emanating from our own pride? In other words, if I see a need, and I feel a desire to to help, and the situation only gets worse, was that due to my prideful desire? Take it a step further. If I decide that I have a desire to preach, and after a while the church falls apart, did that happen because I was prideful about what I desired to do? I ask this because people's souls are at stake. If I don't know how to discern between God's will and my pride, it could end up hurting people forever.

[ February 20, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: JamesJ ]

 

Hello James,

First, I don't think there is a single passage of Scripture that would support or indicate that Satan would cause someone to serve God. From the very beginning the devil as tried to do just the opposite (see the Genesis account of the Fall).

Additionally, God's moral will is fully revealed in the Bible. As long as you are within the revealed moral will of God you are square in the center of His will. Again, God is sovereign and nothing happens that He does not intend to happen. Regarding your question about a church potentially falling apart, I would say that if that happened it would be the result of willful disobedience to God. Sin would be at the root of the problem. It will be sin on the part of hard-hearted church members, or sin on the part of the hypothetical pastor, one or the other (or both). The bottom line is that the church, made up of all believers, is the bride of Christ. It is His church and it does not stand or fall based upon a specific pastor.

 

I know I received my "Call" by the tugging of the Holy Spirit on my heart, by the " many sleepless nights and miserable days until , i got down on my knees and told the Lord that I would surrender my life to preaching his word. Then by the sweet, sweet peace I immediately felt and the many times that I have got behind the pulpit and preached a message that was way beyond my abilities. I would say that is a "Call", but once again we devote an entire thread over "you say po-tay-to, I say po-ta-to type of arguement.

 

Quoted by Sigfried: Murph, After reading your post explaining your exegesis (as well as your PM), I believe I should respond.
****Murph Actually Siegfried you do have a right to respond of course but concerning your mention of my PM the proper course of action when you receive a PM from a Moderator is not to mention the PM but rather to accept the PM as constructive criticism or reply to the PM with your concerns which you chose not to do.
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First, you did intend to attack Bibleboy's challenge to defend your approach biblically in the way that I originally understood it.
**** Murph In my post to Bibleboy my intention was not to attack his stance by attacking him, what I did was to address what I saw as mean spirited remarks from him aimed at anyone who believed one of the things that he “doubted” Incase you don’t know it is the job of a Moderator to diffuse potential problems and this was my intent. And also as I mentioned in my PM one of the Board posting rules is to show grace to other posters and when you pass judgement on my intentions you are not showing grace.
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You took a passage from the book of James that deals with one person seeking wisdom from God to bring him closer to spiritual maturity when he is lacking in that area. James taught that one who did not consistently demonstrate faith in God to supply that wisdom was unstable. You twisted that passage to suggest that whenever another person questions another person's statement of his spiritual experience that the "doubter" is unstable.
If you feel this exegesis issue is a matter of opinion, please explain the hermeneutic you used to arrive at your interpretation. I would settle for a single commentary that supplies an interpretation consistent with your interpretation. Failing that, I believe we have a simple case of whether or not one is able to apply a literal historical-grammatical hermeneutic to the passage.
****Murph My intention was to point that in my view Bibleboy was casting doubt on the faith of others and so I mentioned the James passage. I feel it reasonable to interpret James as saying that God will supply wisdom and for one to doubt His ability to do so is unstable. You asked for a commentary to support my view the following is taken from Adam Clarkes:
Let him ask of God Because God is the only teacher of this wisdom.That giveth to all men liberally Who has all good, and gives all necessary good to every one that asks fervently.Verse 6. Let him ask in faith Believing that God IS; that he has all good; and that he is ever ready to impart to his creatures whatever they need.Nothing wavering. mhden diakrinomenov? Not judging otherwise; having no doubt concerning the truth of these grand and fundamental principles, never supposing that God will permit him to ask in vain, when he asks sincerely and fervently. Let him not hesitate, let him not be irresolute; no man can believe too much good of God.Is like a wave of the sea The man who is not thoroughly persuaded that if he ask of God he shall receive, resembles a wave of the sea; he is in a state of continual agitation; driven by the wind, and tossed: now rising by hope, then sinking by despair.Notes for Verse 7Verse 7. Let not that man think The man whose mind is divided, who is not properly persuaded either of his own wants or God's sufficiency. Such persons may pray, but having no faith, they can get no answer.

I feel that this should be close enough to satisfy your demand. I also found the following from Jamieson, Faucette and Brown: Verse 6 : wavering between belief and unbelief. Compare the case of the Israelites, who seemed to partly believe in God's power, but leaned more to unbelief by "limiting" it.
I felt that Bible Boy was limiting God’s power to communicate to His servants by his continued use of the word “doubt” to pass judgement on other’s beliefs. I believe God still can and does speak to His servants, in my opinion as long as what a Christian hears from God is consistent with scripture that it is not my business to doubt. Many today seek to cast away scripture and break new ground by claiming God has spoke to them, I feel God will never reveal anything contrary to His word. I feel the Prophet Joel and the Apostles also felt this way: 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:16-17
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Second, after seeing your explanation, I will admit that my use of the word "deliberate" may not be correct. If you will either admit that your interpretation was supplied in error out of haste or ignorance, OR that you reject a literal grammatical-historical hermeneutic, I will gladly apologize for my accusation.
****Murph, Sir I resent your multiple choice judgement of my actions according to you I am either in error, hasty in my Moderation, ignorant or best of all that I reject the literal teachings of scripture. I feel my time on this board has shown that I believe in the Bible as it is written and whether or not I fall into either of the other categories is not your call. Having said this I suggest that this discussion cease between you and I as I feel you have taken up a personal case against me and this is also against the posting rules.

Failing one of those two actions on your part, I will be forced to conclude that you deliberately chose to take a passage out of context not suspecting that someone would call you on it.
**** Murph, I happily accept someone “calling me on it” but in the future don’t make it personal

 

When a person says that they have a call they are often thinking in OT terms of a person like Moses (audibly called at the burning bush) or an office like that of a prophet in which a person receives a call. That type of call carries with it an authority to speak or to lead as God's chosen vessel. Often people who say they have been called seek to exercise the same type of rule over people and they use the "call" as an apologetic for their behaviour. I object to this because their is not a one-to-one relationship from the office of OT prophet to the office of NT pastor.

At the same time I am not so sure about the theology that rejects the idea of a NT call altogether. I can't cite chapter and verse in the NT for a call, however, the ministry of the Holy Spirit through his indwelling of believers in the NT makes it unnecessary for me to cite such. God through the Holy Spirit indwells each of us individually and he directs us individually. It is God who puts the desire in a person to "desire the office of a bishop" if they truly have a spiritual desire for it. Otherwise, they are directing themself and attempting to determine their own spiritual gift from their own volition apart from the Holy Spirit.

Do we, as NT believers, hear an audible voice from God commanding us to go into ministry? No.

Does God do a unique work through the Holy Spirit using the word to plant a desire in the hearts of some that he does not put in others? Yes. Does that constitute a call? I think it's OK to identify that with the word "call".

 

JamesJ,

You've raised some important issues that we're always going to have to deal with.

However, all these issues also apply to someone who says "God called me to . . .," just as much as to someone who says, "I have a desire to . . ."

In other words, although it may be difficult to evaluate the sources of a desire objectively, is it any easier to evaluate objectively the source of a call? What (if there are any) are the characteristics of a call that distinguish a call from a desire?

 

There is always a certain amount of subjectivity in this. There can be no truly objective way to know. Man is capable of constructing all kinds of things, including success in ministry. His desire can be driven by selfish reasons. All kinds of things are a factor. Ultimately there is no strictly subjective way to know.

 

In my own case and every other true preacher, pastor, or evangelist I believe in a call to the ministry. I don't preach because its fun or popular but because I felt a call from God into the ministry. Now somebody said we all have a ministry. Yes, but we all can't stand behind a pulpit and preach. I believe there must be a call for preaching just as there must be a call for salvation. (Now there is not a call for everything one does in church. We are not called ti teach Sunday school or to sing in the choir.)Yours may be different than mine but if your a preacher(a true preacher) than God must have called you. This call can be canceled by sin. The Scriptures give clear references to reqirements to the ministry and they teach one can break these requirements and cancel his call. Now this doesn't mean he loses his salvation or God hates him, it just means he is no longer a preacher.

 

Hello swaimj,

You nailed it. That is exactly what I'm talking about. My whole problem with the use of the term "called" is when certain people try to use that term as an excuse to lord over others. There is much confusion over the issue. However, I agree with you that it is the work of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer and creating that "desire" within him to serve in the pastorate. Likewise, the H.S. grants those men the necessary spiritual gifts and ability to function as full-time vocational pastors. We just need to be careful how we loosely throw the term "called" around in church circles.

 

I want to apologize to anyone and everyone who may have felt that my posts in this thread were mean spirited. I assure you that it was never my intent to be mean. I simply wanted all of us to take a deep look at our theological beliefs regarding the issue at hand and make sure that our theology lines up with Scripture. If my posts hurt anyone's feelings I am truly and deeply sorry and I ask your forgiveness.

 

I agree. You can't choose a ministry like a secular job. Just like being saved, you know that you that you know.

 

I've been reading What in the World is God Doing? The Essentials of Global Missions: An Introductory Guide by C. Gordon Olson. Olson addresses the issue of a "Missionary Calling" in Chapter 6 of the book. Olson provides a very poignant quote from J. Herbert Kane on this very sensitive issue. Consider how important it is to be careful with the terminology that we as Christians use. According to J. Herbert Kane:

Today there is little consensus among missionaries, scholars, and missionary sending agencies regarding what a “missionary call” is and how it should be defined. Harold Cook in his book entitled, Introduction to Christian Missions published in 1954 states:

However, Cook does not totally reject the idea of a “call.” Later in the same work he states,

Finally, when Olson considers how we can determine the reality of the “missionary call” he states,

I agree with Olson completely in this respect. The Bible is our final authority and sole source for sound theology and doctrine. If our feelings and experience don’t line up with God’s Word, it is we who must change our ideas to conform to the Word, not the Word that must be changed to conform to our ideas. I like Cook’s position on the use of the term “call” and the way that he expresses the need to be careful with its use. He does not reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is active in the life of the obedient follower of Christ. He simply urges us to use terminology that more closely lines up with the Bible and refers to the activity of the Holy Spirit as “guidance.” That is solid advice in my book.

 

I disagree that this is much ado about nothing. Fundamentalism has been done much damage by those who claim divine authority for their inner feelings. I see no normative passages in Scripture that necessitate a visible, audible, or even internal "call" from God. I do see a plain statement that a desire to serve in church leadership is a noble desire, and by implication should be pursued.

I will concede that what many people mean by "call" is essentially equivalent to the inward recognition of a desire. Nevertheless, the form of the public expression of this concept is important. Many men have gained authority wrongfully through a dramatized "call" story who had little ability to minister the Word and in some cases have failed miserably to meet the biblical qualifications. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with these statements 100%!

As usual,great going!

 

Olive, here's my philosophy when it comes to teaching my children. My firstborn is only three but i am preparing his heart to be useable of GOd. no, he may not be called by God into the pastorate ministry but i want him to be used of God in whatever place God wants him.

I teach him that obedience to God is the safest thing when i tell him about Jonah. I teach him that Moses built the ark even though he hadn't seen rain before. And if Moses wasn't obedient, he'd be dead like the rest and we wouldn't be here....

my son prays for Big Bird on Seseme Street because he knows God can help. (I sensor alot when we watch, especially the music.)

Stuff like that....

I really don't think a bible college degree is one of the prerequsites to becoming a pastor/ preacher. But good training, mentoring to ground a man in the WOrd and the Faith is.