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Calling all "Biblicists"
- Thread starter Siegfried
- Start date
Because man may have a decision, this does not make him "in charge". (as if he could have saved himself even if God did not open up salvation to men). This type of representation is precisely why people are shrinking back from the label "Arminianism", because it is used as such so much.quote:
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Originally posted by Chappie:
God is in charge, a term used to beautify Calvinism. Man in in charge, a derogeratory term held by no one that i know. Assigned by Calvinist to help give credence to their position untill they can find it in the bible.
I have been kicked out of both houses, but i found solace in another house.. Christs....
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So do you believe that God or man is in charge of who gets saved?? You have consistently argued that it is in man's hands. Are you now going to deny that and change positions or will you stick with it??
(amen chappie)
I take it that his point of the "two categories" represent the far end of the spectrum, meaning that all non Calvinists are not at "salvation by works", or even in your words, "merit" (that would be pure Pelagianism). Yet you keep trying to put (force) us there, and this is why people are denying your categorization.quote:
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Originally posted by rlvaughn:
I would consider salvation by grace and salvation by works to be the two broad soteriological categories.
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I don't have a problem with this though the arminians won't like it. I would suggest salvation by grace vs. salvation by merit. That way the arminians can't object to being labeled as "works salvationists." It is clear that they place merit in man by virtue of man's unilateral choice to be saved.
(Never is a person's decision for Christ even regarded as their own "merit" in scripture)
Brethren,
My background is from the First Church of God; Cumberland Presybeterian (chk spelling), and what we call "free-will" Baptists.
These things never bothered me as a child, until after I became "saved" when I once heard my mom assure my grandparents (the First Ch. of God influence), that "we are going to a Baptist church now, but we don't believe 'once in grace' always 'in grace,'" like it or not, this comment started me thinking.
More brief background:
My dad use to preach in the First Church of God; for reasons I do not know (though I think it was for compounded reasons of 1) belonging to the Masonic Lodge; 2) believing he must provide for his family and not depend or expect God, or "his people" to necessarily "put food on the table." he and the church had a disagreement. I have spoken to this since I have grown to understand it more and these are the reasons he gives me (the church required him to come out of the lodge; and to (according to him) discontinue working and enter upon the ministry, visiting, etc. full-time. Neither of these was acceptable to him; (my mom says the question of working was the major problem). This is thier side, however, and is ultimately between dad and God.
My point is this:
I have the background, and strong it is that men do make the decision for Christ. This is now true of my wife's family (United Methodist & and Church of God); who have told me they feared for me because of my willingness to embrace and preach the tenets we call calvinism.
When I heard my mom make the above statement concerning our position in grace; I became interested in the question, which is primarily eternal security, but is believed ( I think) because of one's stand on the issue of salvation.
My studies of the Bible and commentaries began almost as soon as I learned to read. I had and still have a love for reading. My dad had good references, concordances, and a good study Bible, I utilized these sources. Many nights, especially on the weekends I would be drawn to sit and read the Bible for hours, sometimes reading nearly all night long.
During my 13th year I was drawn to the Lord while attending VBS. By the end of the week my own will was removed and I realized my position in Christ; (I liken the process to the looking into the cup which Christ drank; seeing that cup filled with the wrath of God; refusing that cup; finally taking that cup (because I have no choice but to receive it, filled with wrath or Grace); and finding it to be transformed from the wrath of God to the Salvation of God).
Back to my point:
Call these beliefs what we will: My personal study of Scripture never led me to believe I was "lost" again, though I had walked from God, this was because of my perception (and mostly my own desire) that no one would receive what I beleived, because it is called calvinism.
I rebelled from God's calling to Preach for nearly 16 yrs. Saw a mobile home, all of my belongings destroyed in a tornado, while my wife and first child were in it; (they were laid on the ground where the trailor was setting); I knew the meaning of this and still did not publicly acknowledge it. Four years later I saw my marriage almost destroyed and finally I knew I had carried things as far as I could.
We were attending an U.Methodist church and I attempted to announce my calling to this organization; it was coldly received. I was given an opp. to teach a young teen Sun. School class and noticed the lack of the mention in the book provided though the scripture were there of the real work of Christ (as the Lamb of God in sacrifice). I began to teach from the Word of God; one Sun. someone came in to gather our offering and I was teaching on the crucifixion, and we were discussing the blood of the sacrifice. Later I was told to discontinue teaching these things because I would frighten the youth. It would be best if I just reminded the youth to wonder WWJD.
The problem is, I know what Jesus did, and others need to know what Jesus did.
I thank God every day for leading me to Grider Memorial Baptist for the Scriptural teaching, where all doctrines are taught regardless of thier difficulty; the secret things belong to God.
I believe Calvin saw the same truth in Scripture. Anyone who believes otherwise has that freedom, I respect that,
But I agree with Job:
(paraphrased) We do not refuse to go to the table to eat when bidden because we know not whether God has decreed our strangulation in the eating of the meal. You who are husbandmen do not refuse your tilling and sowing when the season is right because you do not know whether God has decreed success in your harvest.
That is found in His sermon: Election, No discouragement to seeking souls.
All that we can do is publish the Gospel of the Grace of God; God must be responsible for regenerating men.
Once in reading the works of John Bunyan I found his beliefs on the work of the Trinity in salvation.
He stated: God alone cannot save anyone, Christ alone cannot save anyone, the Holy Spirit alone cannot save anyone, this is the work of the Godhead.
God the Father wills for individuals to be saved; God the Son came and performed the covenant work of righteousness; and God the Holy Spirit goes where and when the Father directs Him.
At first I disagreed with this statement fundamentally because of the opening of it. But in study I find it to be a great and simple truth.
Forgive me for the length of this post.
God Bless you all in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
My background is from the First Church of God; Cumberland Presybeterian (chk spelling), and what we call "free-will" Baptists.
These things never bothered me as a child, until after I became "saved" when I once heard my mom assure my grandparents (the First Ch. of God influence), that "we are going to a Baptist church now, but we don't believe 'once in grace' always 'in grace,'" like it or not, this comment started me thinking.
More brief background:
My dad use to preach in the First Church of God; for reasons I do not know (though I think it was for compounded reasons of 1) belonging to the Masonic Lodge; 2) believing he must provide for his family and not depend or expect God, or "his people" to necessarily "put food on the table." he and the church had a disagreement. I have spoken to this since I have grown to understand it more and these are the reasons he gives me (the church required him to come out of the lodge; and to (according to him) discontinue working and enter upon the ministry, visiting, etc. full-time. Neither of these was acceptable to him; (my mom says the question of working was the major problem). This is thier side, however, and is ultimately between dad and God.
My point is this:
I have the background, and strong it is that men do make the decision for Christ. This is now true of my wife's family (United Methodist & and Church of God); who have told me they feared for me because of my willingness to embrace and preach the tenets we call calvinism.
When I heard my mom make the above statement concerning our position in grace; I became interested in the question, which is primarily eternal security, but is believed ( I think) because of one's stand on the issue of salvation.
My studies of the Bible and commentaries began almost as soon as I learned to read. I had and still have a love for reading. My dad had good references, concordances, and a good study Bible, I utilized these sources. Many nights, especially on the weekends I would be drawn to sit and read the Bible for hours, sometimes reading nearly all night long.
During my 13th year I was drawn to the Lord while attending VBS. By the end of the week my own will was removed and I realized my position in Christ; (I liken the process to the looking into the cup which Christ drank; seeing that cup filled with the wrath of God; refusing that cup; finally taking that cup (because I have no choice but to receive it, filled with wrath or Grace); and finding it to be transformed from the wrath of God to the Salvation of God).
Back to my point:
Call these beliefs what we will: My personal study of Scripture never led me to believe I was "lost" again, though I had walked from God, this was because of my perception (and mostly my own desire) that no one would receive what I beleived, because it is called calvinism.
I rebelled from God's calling to Preach for nearly 16 yrs. Saw a mobile home, all of my belongings destroyed in a tornado, while my wife and first child were in it; (they were laid on the ground where the trailor was setting); I knew the meaning of this and still did not publicly acknowledge it. Four years later I saw my marriage almost destroyed and finally I knew I had carried things as far as I could.
We were attending an U.Methodist church and I attempted to announce my calling to this organization; it was coldly received. I was given an opp. to teach a young teen Sun. School class and noticed the lack of the mention in the book provided though the scripture were there of the real work of Christ (as the Lamb of God in sacrifice). I began to teach from the Word of God; one Sun. someone came in to gather our offering and I was teaching on the crucifixion, and we were discussing the blood of the sacrifice. Later I was told to discontinue teaching these things because I would frighten the youth. It would be best if I just reminded the youth to wonder WWJD.
The problem is, I know what Jesus did, and others need to know what Jesus did.
I thank God every day for leading me to Grider Memorial Baptist for the Scriptural teaching, where all doctrines are taught regardless of thier difficulty; the secret things belong to God.
I believe Calvin saw the same truth in Scripture. Anyone who believes otherwise has that freedom, I respect that,
But I agree with Job:
I also like Spurgeon's analogy:Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in? For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters. For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came. Job 3.23-26
(paraphrased) We do not refuse to go to the table to eat when bidden because we know not whether God has decreed our strangulation in the eating of the meal. You who are husbandmen do not refuse your tilling and sowing when the season is right because you do not know whether God has decreed success in your harvest.
That is found in His sermon: Election, No discouragement to seeking souls.
All that we can do is publish the Gospel of the Grace of God; God must be responsible for regenerating men.
Once in reading the works of John Bunyan I found his beliefs on the work of the Trinity in salvation.
He stated: God alone cannot save anyone, Christ alone cannot save anyone, the Holy Spirit alone cannot save anyone, this is the work of the Godhead.
God the Father wills for individuals to be saved; God the Son came and performed the covenant work of righteousness; and God the Holy Spirit goes where and when the Father directs Him.
At first I disagreed with this statement fundamentally because of the opening of it. But in study I find it to be a great and simple truth.
Forgive me for the length of this post.
God Bless you all in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas Eaton