MargoWriter
New Member
yup.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Calling all Calvinists
- Thread starter icthus
- Start date
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Margo;
I just couldn't resist;
Nope
My Answer to your yup
I just couldn't resist;
Nope
My Answer to your yup
MargoWriter
New Member
nope
(my answer to your nope in answer to my yup)
(my answer to your nope in answer to my yup)
Wes Outwest
New Member
That anyone has faith is a result of God's work within them. </font>[/QUOTE]Then God put faith in satan in the satan worshippers too?
When you post something silly late on Sunday night, don't be surprised that no one answer in less than an hour.
First, not all Calvinists define "world" as "elect." That is actually a minority view, I believe. Second, your own verse shows how ridiculous your assertion is. You can't hang your hat on the subjunctive being "not certain and conditional" because v. 16 uses the subjunctive to promise salvation to the believers. Surely you would not argue that believers only "might be" saved, but not "certainly saved" ...
The word everlasting sometimes means a long period of time, rather than endless. But the covenant God made with Israel is still good (cf Gal 3:16; and too many other passages to list here). The church has not replaced Israel. They are still his people, and when the repent, they will be restored. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Larry, so, what do you make of the use of the subjunctive here? These is no place in the entire Bible, where something is not used for a purpose? It clearly says what it says, that the "salvation of the believer" is dependant on their "believing", hence you have whosoever "believes", in the "present continuance" tense. Right? Does not Hebrews warn us believers: "...and they to whom it was first preached entered not because of unbelief...let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" (4:6,11). Are you suggesting that these "warnings" are only "hypothetical"? If so, then what purpose do they serve?
Wes Outwest
New Member
No, because satan and the satan worshippers don't have faith. They believe certain true things ABOUT God, but they don't trust him. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you trying to tell me that there are humans that have NO FAITH?
Well, you'd be wrong because every human has faith in something. Faith is faith! It is the object of faith that makes all the difference in Eternity.
So how did those who lack faith in God get their faith in Satan if it is God alone who gives faith? Well, God musta given to 'em 'cause he's the onlyest one that can! You said so yorself!
Care to reconsider where faith comes from?
When Paul says we are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves, he isn't talking about faith in Satan, is he? I was using the word "faith" to mean "faith in God" or "faith in Christ"--the sense in which the word is most commonly used in scripture.
And I'm pretty certain you already knew that.
Hi Larry, so, what do you make of the use of the subjunctive here? These is no place in the entire Bible, where something is not used for a
But you are reading too much into the subjunctive mood.
Yes
The warnings are not hypothetical. The warnings are real. The idea that a true beleiver could lose their faith is hypothetical. Christ answered to that in JOhn 10 very clearly. The point of the warnings is to guard ourselves against complacency and to keep pursuing Christ. Don't think that because you made some intellectual decision that you are truly saved. The evidence of true faith is continuance. The warning passages of Hebrews are hard, no matter which side you are on. I know, becaues I just preached through them.
But you are reading too much into the subjunctive mood.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Larry;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
I am surprized that you believe that any part of the Bible in hypothetical. If it isn't all truth then why believe any of it. You're talking about God's word as if you know more about what God said than He did. Hebrews is not the only book that can lead someone to realize that you can loose your Salvation for unbelief. You call it warnings I call it redefining it to make it more agreeable with your view.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Nice try, Mike. Notice very clearly didn't say that the Bible (any part of it) was hypothetical. If you look at the first line, I said it was real.
Don't make up stuff. You have been warned. I specifically answered this objection before you made it.
Don't make up stuff. You have been warned. I specifically answered this objection before you made it.
Wes Outwest
New Member
When Paul says we are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves, he isn't talking about faith in Satan, is he? I was using the word "faith" to mean "faith in God" or "faith in Christ"--the sense in which the word is most commonly used in scripture.
And I'm pretty certain you already knew that. </font>[/QUOTE]Good, then you do recognize there is faith capability in man, that man can possess faith under his own power and will and determination but it does not have to be faith in God! You do recognize that fact?
Then, if man can have faith in anything under his own power, man can have faith in God by the same means!
Faith in God cometh by hearing and Hearing by the word of God, means that man can by hearing the word of God establish within himself faith in God! Do you understand that basic truth?
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Larry;
You have warned me. What are the consequinces of ignoring your warning. You falsely accuse me and then warn me. Lets get it out in the open Larry I'm tired of your silly mind games. Carry out your threat.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
But Larry You said;
I don't make things up Larry.
You have warned me. What are the consequinces of ignoring your warning. You falsely accuse me and then warn me. Lets get it out in the open Larry I'm tired of your silly mind games. Carry out your threat.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
Wes Outwest
New Member
No, because you can't have faith in someone that you are hostile too. </font>[/QUOTE]That is why Faith in God comes from Hearing God's very persuasive word! The only way that you know that God is your friend is by learning about Him, and that learning comes from HIS word.
When we speak about God we are relating what we learn from His word. If we learn from his word, then all mankind can learn from the same source.
When you pick up a biography about a person, you do not have to be regenerated relative to that person before you can read about and learn about the person. You simply read the biography and learn, then decide whether or not you actually like the person. It is no different with the bible, God's bio.
It is when you have the "knowledge" gained from "hearing the word" in your brain, that your spirit can act on it. When your spirit acts, so does the Holy Spirit act on you and shows you the truth in the knowledge that you've gained by Hearing the word. You become presuaded and thus regenerated, born again when you accept the truth from God's word and believe in God...includes Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
But Larry You said;
I don't make things up Larry.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes you did. You said that I said part of the Bible was hypothetical. I did not say that. You tried to change what I said and you shouldn't have. A true believer cannot lose their faith. That is the promise of God. He who started the work will finish it. Of course, I guess if you don't think God started the work, then you might question whether or not someone could lose it.
But bottom line, you made something up that I didn't say.
I haven't made any threat. I have asked you to watch you conduct and to quit saying things that aren't true. I have never falsely accused you and you know that. I am not playing any silly mind games. Quite frankly, you bore me ...
... This is not even a challenge to think Mike. These so called objections that you have don't even make sense. I find it hard to beleive tht you take them seriously. But regardless, don't make up what I said. Address what I did say.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Larry;
I think just fine which is a real problem for you. You play these silly mind games all the time.
With more than just me.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
A warning is a threat. There is nothing wrong with my conduct but there is something wrong with yours. You are wrong you have falsely accused me and this is just one of many instances. Your so good at twisting that you even attempt to twist what I say.
I think just fine which is a real problem for you. You play these silly mind games all the time.
With more than just me.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
No, a warning is a warning. It is not a threat. Your conduct is out of line. This post is evidence of it. According to the rules you agreed to, if you have problems with the moderating you are to take it up privately, not publicly. I have twisted nothing. I play no mind games. I have never falsely accused you. I have documented everything I have said.
This conversation is over. If you wish to address it further, you may send me a PM.
This conversation is over. If you wish to address it further, you may send me a PM.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Post deleted due to disregard of board rules.
[ April 12, 2005, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
[ April 12, 2005, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Yes
The warnings are not hypothetical. The warnings are real. The idea that a true beleiver could lose their faith is hypothetical. Christ answered to that in JOhn 10 very clearly. The point of the warnings is to guard ourselves against complacency and to keep pursuing Christ. Don't think that because you made some intellectual decision that you are truly saved. The evidence of true faith is continuance. The warning passages of Hebrews are hard, no matter which side you are on. I know, becaues I just preached through them.
But you are reading too much into the subjunctive mood. </font>[/QUOTE]Lets start with your last remerks about the subjunctive mood. As you are a Pastor, I am assuming that you must have studied Greek, right? If so, then I want you to deal with, and not brush aside, why Jesus Himself uses this language? Surely the certain salvation of the "elect" would have required the indicative mood to have been used. Do you suppose that there is a fault here with the use of the subjunctive, then?
You say: "The idea that a true beleiver could lose their faith is hypothetical". Care to back this up with some Scriptures, then?
I am sure that you have read Hebrews 10:26-31, which is speaking of those who "have been sanctified"(v.29), which can only refer to a truly born-again believer, unless you can find me an example to prove otherwise. Read verse 28, "he that despised (atheteo, "to reject", "put aside") Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much more sorer (worse, more severe) punishment..."(29). When compared to what was done in rejection to the Law of Moses, which was in reality the Law of God, there was NO MERCY shown. "How much more worse punishment...he who was sanctified" shall be thought worthy. Do you see how strong the language is in verse 29. Can you see the extent of the sins that these believers committed? Are you suggesting that all of this is nothing but "hypothetical"? Rather you than me teach this, as I would be VERY careful not to trifle with the Word of Almighty God.