Calling all Calvinists

[TC]

Originally posted by icthus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whetstone:
if falling away is possible, why do you suppose God calls it 'eternal' life I wonder? Why didn't He call it 'possible' life, or 'conditional' life? This isn't an argument- just a question I ponder.

You know Whetstone, that is a good question. But looking at the history of Israel, where God made eternal Covenants with them, and yet, because of their unbelief they no longer are "the people of God". The book of Hebrews has been called by some "the book of warnings", for we read things like, "how shall we escape if we neglect (not reject) so great salvation..."(2:3); for we (Christians) are made partners of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" (3:14), etc. Where the language makes this "conditional", and requires us to do something. </font>[/QUOTE]But OT Israel did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and sealing them. We have the promise that He (Christ) who began a good work in us will complete that work. It is Jesus and not us that keeps us and gives us eternal life.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by icthus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by whetstone:
if falling away is possible, why do you suppose God calls it 'eternal' life I wonder? Why didn't He call it 'possible' life, or 'conditional' life? This isn't an argument- just a question I ponder.

You know Whetstone, that is a good question. But looking at the history of Israel, where God made eternal Covenants with them, and yet, because of their unbelief they no longer are "the people of God". The book of Hebrews has been called by some "the book of warnings", for we read things like, "how shall we escape if we neglect (not reject) so great salvation..."(2:3); for we (Christians) are made partners of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" (3:14), etc. Where the language makes this "conditional", and requires us to do something. </font>[/QUOTE]I think when we claim election and salvation are the same as Isreal and election we will continue to find contradictions. I believe Isreal was chosen to show the Power and MIght of God. Who He is. Others outside of Isreal could be saved. They had to follow the God of Isreal though. God did not elect all of Isreal to be saved. It must be a different election. What think you all? This is a question not a statement.

 

[Wes Outwest]

We have the promise that He (Christ) who began a good work in us will complete that work.

Yes, and "the promise" of everlasting life is just that, A PROMISE of something to come. For that which you possess there is no need of a promise!

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />We have the promise that He (Christ) who began a good work in us will complete that work.

Yes, and "the promise" of everlasting life is just that, A PROMISE of something to come. For that which you possess there is no need of a promise! </font>[/QUOTE]Then whats the sealing for? ...unto the day of redemption?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Which scripture are you referring to Timtooman?

 

[JustinWindsor]

God is sovereign and exercises His will and providence not only in who, individually, receives His grace, but also in the measure of grace given.

"For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." Rom 12:3

"Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches." 1Cor 7:17

"But we will not boast beyond our measure, but within the measure of the sphere which God apportioned to us as a measure, to reach even as far as you." 2 Cor 10:13

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift." Eph 4:7

Those who believe the Wesleyan, Arminian, and Pelagian errors will not understand the full weight of these verses.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by JustinWindsor:
God is sovereign and exercises His will and providence not only in who, individually, receives His grace, but also in the measure of grace given.

"For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." Rom 12:3

"Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches." 1Cor 7:17

"But we will not boast beyond our measure, but within the measure of the sphere which God apportioned to us as a measure, to reach even as far as you." 2 Cor 10:13

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift." Eph 4:7

Those who believe the Wesleyan, Arminian, and Pelagian errors will not understand the full weight of these verses.

Can you answer me this one question. What is the Biblical reason for a person being lost, and spending eternity in hell?

 

[JustinWindsor]

They perish because of their unbelief.

 

[TCassidy]

Sin. Romans 6:23 cf Rev 20:14.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by JustinWindsor:
God is sovereign and exercises His will and providence not only in who, individually, receives His grace, but also in the measure of grace given.

"For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." Rom 12:3

"Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches." 1Cor 7:17

"But we will not boast beyond our measure, but within the measure of the sphere which God apportioned to us as a measure, to reach even as far as you." 2 Cor 10:13

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift." Eph 4:7

Those who believe the Wesleyan, Arminian, and Pelagian errors will not understand the full weight of these verses.

We do understand your mis-interpretation of them!

 

[JustinWindsor]

Hehehe...chasing our tails here aren't we? Guess we'll just have to pray for each other, huh?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
Sin. Romans 6:23 cf Rev 20:14.

Jesus atoned for SIN, thus sin has been removed from its role as a barrier that prevents man from having everlasting life through personal, individual, faith in jesus Christ. Paul knew this all too well, and Preached it to the Romans!

Romans 6:20-23 When you were the servants of sin, you felt no obligation to uprightness, and what did you gain from living like that? Experiences of which you are now ashamed, for that sort of behaviour ends in death. BUT, NOW YOU ARE SET FREE FROM SIN and bound to the service of God, your gain will be sanctification and the end will be eternal life. For the wage paid by sin is death; the gift freely given by God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 20:13-15. The sea gave up all the dead who were in it; Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds (works) deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death; and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake.

 

[icthus]

Still not a single Calvinist has been able to deal with the Greek grammar of my OP. When it comes to the crunch, they put their tails between their legs and run!

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Icthus;

Still not a single Calvinist has been able to deal with the Greek grammar of my OP. When it comes to the crunch, they put their tails between their legs and run!

Well they do offer a bunch of meaningless insults first.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

Russell and I both dealt with it. As I pointed out, your argument is self-defeating. The subjunctive case is used of salvation but does not indicate that salvation is uncertain. Since you are into arguing Greek grammar, I am sure you have Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. On pp. 473-4, he talks about the subjunctive mood in a hina clause. It is a purpose-result clause that "indicates both the intention and its sure accomplishment" (p. 473). He continues, "The fact that the subjunctive is all but required after hina does not, of course, aruge for uncertainty as to the fate of the believer" (p. 474, in the discussinon of John 3:16).

The answer to the question of why use a subjunctive is that the hina clause of purpose-result normally uses hte subjunctive mood.

So the fact that you didn't like the answer doesn't mean that no one was able to deal with it. No one ran. We answered several times, and here I am back again to answer yet another time.

The question is, Will you accept the truth about Greek grammar?

 

[OSAS]

Originally posted by icthus:
Still not a single Calvinist has been able to deal with the Greek grammar of my OP. When it comes to the crunch, they put their tails between their legs and run!

Actually russell55 answered your post back on page one.

I know this much about what I have seen from your posts in this subject area.... We know you by your fruits...

 

[icthus]

Dr Wallace's distortion of the Greek for John 3:16 has been dealt with here http://www.crisispub.com/scriptural_position_of_john_3.htm

And been refuted quite successfully.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by icthus:
Still not a single Calvinist has been able to deal with the Greek grammar of my OP. When it comes to the crunch, they put their tails between their legs and run!

you say stuff like this a lot. does it give you an inner giddiness i wonder? Maybe you sit at the screen rubbing your hands together mumbling to yourself, 'run you calvinist @!%%@#! RUN!'

 

[whetstone]

i mean if i were on a Catholic or Muslim board, saying things like this would chase people away not cause them to rethink their position.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by whetstone:
i mean if i were on a Catholic or Muslim board, saying things like this would chase people away not cause them to rethink their position.

Thats because Calvinists do NOT face the issues honestly, but will try every means possible not to accept the truth, and place their faith more in their warped theological notions, than in the sound Word of God. A typical example is John 3:16, where they will fight to have the meaning of "kosmos" changed, even though the Greek lexicons agree that the "human race" is meant. But, to accept this meaning would be a real crisis for any Calvinist.