Calvin and Holy Spirit

[Logos1]

Let Sola Scriptura Determine whether it’s Hyperbole or Literal

While I find it mildly flattering that jarthur feels the need to sneak around me in attempts to get support for his arguments against me in other threads I'll let it go at that--I'm not here to address him.

I think the arguments already made here (via Webdog and Amyg for starters) do a fine job of expressing what is at the heart of the non Cal position. Scripture clearly states Christ died for all, to cover all sins, and to provide opportunity that all might be saved. This is made plain over and over again in scripture.

How many times do the apostles have to say it
1 Timothy 2:3-6

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

John 3:16
Hebrews 2:19
and plenty of other places

God says it through the prophets Isaiah 53:6
the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all

Jesus says it Himself
"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” (12:31-32).

In view of plainly worded and repeated scripture when anyone argues for limited atonement only for the elect they are at odds with the inspired words of the Holy Spirit, of the Apostles, of God, and of Christ. They need to adjust their position to the bible not try to twist the bible to their position.

Hyperbole or Literal
Well hyperbole in that it expresses not their actual words but the implication of their words and yet literal in that it's splitting nonexistent hairs in that their words imply what they don't dare to say out loud.

When one reads so many examples that say all men have the opportunity for salvation its clearly God's will and desire that all should come to salvation in Christ. To suggest otherwise is elevating one's self or Calvin or whoever suggests it above scripture--so to extend this logic where it naturally leads--they are dietizing themselves whether have the guts to own up to it or not.

If jarthur looks in the mirror it appears he will have confronted the answer to his question.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

You sweet talker--I bet you say that to everybody you meet in here.

 

[Logos1]

Get Everybody all Whooped up

The following extracts are taken from B.B.Warfield's 1909 article called :John Calvin The Theologian Of the Holy Spirit

"...we must say that the doctrine of the work of the Holy Spirit is a gift from Calvin to the Church. It was he who first related the whole experience of salvation specifically to the working of the Holy Spirit,worked it out into its details,contemplated its several steps and stages in orderly progress as the product of the Holy Spirit's specific work in applying salvation to the soul.Thus he gave systematic and adequate expression to the whole doctrine of the Holy Spirit and made it the assured possession of the Church of God."

Warfield concludes with:

"Here then is probably Calvin's greatest contribution to theological development. In his hands,for the first time in the history of the Church,the doctrine of the Holy Spirit comes to its rights. into the heart of none more than into his did the vision of the glory of God shine, and no one has been more determined than he not to give the glory of God to another. Who has been more devoted than he to the Saviour,by whose blood he has been bought? But, above everything else,it is the sense of the sovereign working of salvation by the almighty power of the Holy Spirit which characterizes all Calvin's thought of God. And above everything else he deserves,therefore, the great name of the theologian of the Holy Spirit."

Yes Waterfield did let flow fourth some nice, flowery words alright. Not that I’m a Clinton supporter mind you, but I have to quote Hillary here “one of those great rhetorical flourishes and then, you know, get everybody all whooped up.”

After some people read this it is easy to see why some people want to Saint Calvin.

But it’s just a pretty rhetorical flourish—it doesn’t really have any meat and potatoes to it. It just gets some people all whooped up. Well whoop dee dee!


"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

Smashing rhetorical flourish my good man—I’m feeling all whooped up!

 

[Rippon]

Yes Waterfield [sic] did let flow fourth [sic]some nice, flowery words alright. Not that I’m a Clinton supporter mind you, but I have to quote Hillary here “one of those great rhetorical flourishes and then, you know, get everybody all whooped up.”

After some people read this it is easy to see why some people want [sic]to Saint Calvin.

But it’s just a pretty rhetorical flourish—it doesn’t really have any meat and potatoes to it. It just gets some people all whooped up. Well whoop dee dee!

Smashing rhetorical flourish my good man—I’m feeling all whooped up!

I take it that you are not a teetotaller.

If you ever come up with a post that has some substance to it -- I will certainly consider a worthy reply.

 

[Iconoclast]

As one who used to believe this, limited atonement has to be read into that text.

WD,
You would have to be a mental gymnast to explain away jn 6:37-44..in fact you cannot.

or Hebrews10:14

14for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

 

[Logos1]

Oh be Still my heart

I take it that you are not a teetotaller.

If you ever come up with a post that has some substance to it -- I will certainly consider a worthy reply.

My heart doth pitter-patter with anticipation!

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

Cute the way you whisper sweet nothings!

 

[Iconoclast]

Logos,
Besides misunderstanding every verse you posted that used the word "all"
You listed Hebrews 2:19 [interesting,since there are only 18 verses in chap2]

Let's assume you meant to pull Heb 2:9 out of it's context....because it uses the phrase...every one.

Interesting that in context it explains very clearly who the everyone are,and is one of the strongest sections teaching definate atonement in the bible
[Webdog] explain your new found understanding here also....
Let's see who the everyone is in Hebrews 2:9-16

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

Here 10 descriptions of the elect sheep are given;
1]many sons

2]their

3]they who are sanctified

4]brethren

5]my brethren

6]the church

7] the children which God hath given me.

8]the children

9]them

10] the seed of Abraham

Webdog.....you say at on time you "held" this view? If you could,let me know why you would let this view go? Explain how these 10 modifiers do ....not teach a definiate and particular redemption?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I take it that you are not a teetotaller.

If you ever come up with a post that has some substance to it -- I will certainly consider a worthy reply.

LOL & kindly stay off the sauce when speaking to me.......Brilliant Rippon Brilliant! ROFL.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My heart doth pitter-patter with anticipation!

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk" Rippon

Cute the way you whisper sweet nothings!

you guys need a room?

 

[Amy.G]

I don't want to hear one word of complaint from you about those nasty Calvinists and their unkind remarks as long as you resort to the language of "two different gospels."That's reprehensible.

You can't always get what you want. :laugh:

Multitudes of folks have been saved under the preaching of unadulterated Calvinistic Gospel preaching through the centuries. since they have been saved from the wrath to come -- that means it was THE Gospel. True biblical Calvinistic preaching is certainly not being referenced in Gal.1:8 and 9.

Yes, many have been saved under their preaching, but that doesn't prove Calvinism is THE gospel.

You give far too much credit to the preacher than you do to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Amy.G]

The following extracts are taken from B.B.Warfield's 1909 article called :John Calvin The Theologian Of the Holy Spirit

"...we must say that the doctrine of the work of the Holy Spirit is a gift from Calvin to the Church. It was he who first related the whole experience of salvation specifically to the working of the Holy Spirit,worked it out into its details,contemplated its several steps and stages in orderly progress as the product of the Holy Spirit's specific work in applying salvation to the soul.Thus he gave systematic and adequate expression to the whole doctrine of the Holy Spirit and made it the assured possession of the Church of God."

Well silly me. Here I thought I learned about the Holy Spirit from the Bible. All this time I should have been giving credit to Calvin. :sleep:

 

[Logos1]

Secret Calvin Decoder Ring

Besides misunderstanding every verse you posted that used the word "all"

Thanks for the correction Iconoclast. Good catch. A typo it should be 2:9

Out of context? My good sir your wishing to define them out of context doesn't actually make them out of context.

I think you could properly define the brethren, church, children, etc. as meaning the elect, the faithful, those who chose to accept Christ as their personal savior. However, You missed the greater meaning. All men have the opportunity to choose to be among the elect. When scripture says all men it's not a secret meaning of everyone that really means "just some."

If you needed a secret Calvin decoder ring to understand the scripture then I could say you needed a secret Logos1 decoder ring and you could say you needed a secret Iconoclast decoder ring and scripture would cease to have any real meaning that anyone could discern.

In a very real way I think you have just illustrated the essence of why Calvinism has this intriguing appeal to some--it's like the bible code and adherents can obtain this higher understanding like they have evolved to a higher level of existential awareness that puts them in a special group--they have become "the elect" of scriptural understanding becoming a reflection of the "the elect" that only get salvation.

It's sort of modern day gnosticism.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk"... Rippon

A sweet talker, a romancer, and such a gifted turn of the phrase.

 

[webdog]

WD,
You would have to be a mental gymnast to explain away jn 6:37-44..in fact you cannot.

or Hebrews10:14

I do believe gymnastics are used in interpreting this
If the converse of a absolute truth statement were also absolute truth, you might have a point.

 

[Winman]

WD,
You would have to be a mental gymnast to explain away jn 6:37-44..in fact you cannot.

or Hebrews10:14

You pull this verse out of context, read a little more.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

These are people who have received the knowledge of the truth but reject it. They are lost. But notice in vs. 29 they are also sanctified.

You can make the scriptures say anything if you pull verses out of context.

 

[Iconoclast]

You pull this verse out of context, read a little more.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

These are people who have received the knowledge of the truth but reject it. They are lost. But notice in vs. 29 they are also sanctified.

You can make the scriptures say anything if you pull verses out of context.

The he is Jesus...Hebrews 2:11......Jesus and the elect are sanctified by The Father.

 

[Iconoclast]

I do believe gymnastics are used in interpreting this
If the converse of a absolute truth statement were also absolute truth, you might have a point.

Webdog,
You avoid the covenant language....because to own it leads to the same conclusion as those who believe the doctrines of grace. I understand sort of, but then again...it is somewhat strange.

 

[Luke2427]

The he is Jesus...Hebrews 2:11......Jesus and the elect are sanctified by The Father.

This is absolutely correct. Other texts bear witness of the fact that Jesus was sanctified. I know that someone will say, "That's idiotic! Jesus did not need to be sanctified!!" When they do, we will reveal those texts.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for the correction Iconoclast. Good catch. A typo it should be 2:9

Out of context? My good sir your wishing to define them out of context doesn't actually make them out of context.

I think you could properly define the brethren, church, children, etc. as meaning the elect, the faithful, those who chose to accept Christ as their personal savior. However, You missed the greater meaning. All men have the opportunity to choose to be among the elect. When scripture says all men it's not a secret meaning of everyone that really means "just some."

If you needed a secret Calvin decoder ring to understand the scripture then I could say you needed a secret Logos1 decoder ring and you could say you needed a secret Iconoclast decoder ring and scripture would cease to have any real meaning that anyone could discern.

In a very real way I think you have just illustrated the essence of why Calvinism has this intriguing appeal to some--it's like the bible code and adherents can obtain this higher understanding like they have evolved to a higher level of existential awareness that puts them in a special group--they have become "the elect" of scriptural understanding becoming a reflection of the "the elect" that only get salvation.

It's sort of modern day gnosticism.

"Trash-talking, saying stupid things, lie in blatant manner, you say such junk"... Rippon

A sweet talker, a romancer, and such a gifted turn of the phrase.

Logos,
Thanks for your response. You are onto something.No secret decoder ring,however saving truth must be revealed ;
Here is how Jesus described your "decoder ring"

1He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Logos....."all" does not have to mean all men without exception.I hate to be the one to break this news to you.
it can mean all men everywhere.
it can mean all types of men,ie rich poor, young old
it can mean all men in a group or class....in Adam all die, In Christ all are made alive....not everyone is In Christ!
it can mean all men, not the Jew only

This nonsense about the word all, or the word world needs to stop.
world..the cosmos
world..the earth
world..not israel only
world of the ungodly
world system
love not the world
I pray not for the world

One size does not fit all.

Logos , you say this;

All men have the opportunity to choose to be among the elect.

No they do not, never have,never will.
the choosing belongs to God.
Many have lived and died and never hear of Jesus or God's election before the world was.
That is why missionaires go out.

Logos..then you tried this one;

If you needed a secret Calvin decoder ring to understand the scripture

No ,just The Spirit of God....1cor 2:9-15

Finally you offer this;

It's sort of modern day gnosticism

Your view seeks to redefine,God and his revelation to be acceptable to the carnally minded.The God of scripture is sometimes an offence to the politically correct thought of the day. The God of Jn 3:16 killed multitudes in the flood of Noah's day. He will do so on the last day.
I cannot begin to understand how you can look at Hebrews 2:9-16 honestly and see anything different than what I described...I do not care what ism , or what term you assign to it. Jesus identifies with those given Him of the Father
in the Eternal Covenant of Redemption, before the world was.
This obsession to try to insert fallen man , or his self will into the verses is not wise,or scriptural .

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

so.....

show me where someone has said...

Calvin is supreme authority on all matters even surpassing Paul and the Holy Spirit.

You will never find that because thats idolatry....why are you asking....whats your end game?

 

[Rippon]

You will never find that because thats idolatry....why are you asking....whats your end game?

Because that lie was put forth by a certain BB member and he hasn't the guts to renounce the lie and apologize for it.

 

[Rippon]

You can't always get what you want.

No,but I'll just point out your blatant inconsistency.

You give far too much credit to the preacher than you do to the Holy Spirit.

Twist my words all you want.

Keep up the same junk about Calvinists having a different Gospel and see where you land.