Calvin and Holy Spirit

[Logos1]

I think we are making some progress here Iconcolast

You're to be congratulated for wanting to make a case of broadening Calvinism and make the "elect" more broad based and world wide. That's a nice start. I won't rag on you for that. You are moving in the right direction and I encourage you to keep exploring that line of thought. Good job Iconoclast!

I don't feel the need to nitpick whether it's rendered everyone who is believing or whosoever will...the point is all men may obtain salvation through Christ if they accept him as their personal savior in pardon of sins. Christ provides the opportunity for all men to join the elect.

If in your mind making a fiat declaration that any of the apostles are Calvinists then by all means have at it--maybe this is worthy of your starting a new thread to promote the idea and if it has real merit maybe you can win some people over to your view point. Give it a whirl and see where it goes beyond hardcore Calvinists. Start a poll. Produce some supporting evidence that they thought the "elect" was meant to rule men out of salvation instead of allow mankind in.

I'm fond of sarcasm? What was your first clue?

"How old are you? You do act rather young."...Jarthur001

Grandfather may I stay up and post past 8:00 tonight?

 

[Iconoclast]

You're to be congratulated for wanting to make a case of broadening Calvinism and make the "elect" more broad based and world wide. That's a nice start. I won't rag on you for that. You are moving in the right direction and I encourage you to keep exploring that line of thought. Good job Iconoclast!

I don't feel the need to nitpick whether it's rendered everyone who is believing or whosoever will...the point is all men may obtain salvation through Christ if they accept him as their personal savior in pardon of sins. Christ provides the opportunity for all men to join the elect.

If in your mind making a fiat declaration that any of the apostles are Calvinists then by all means have at it--maybe this is worthy of your starting a new thread to promote the idea and if it has real merit maybe you can win some people over to your view point. Give it a whirl and see where it goes beyond hardcore Calvinists. Start a poll. Produce some supporting evidence that they thought the "elect" was meant to rule men out of salvation instead of allow mankind in.

I'm fond of sarcasm? What was your first clue?

"How old are you? You do act rather young."...Jarthur001

Grandfather may I stay up and post past 8:00 tonight?

Logos,
We can agree that God saves sinners.We can agree that we are to be faithful to proclaim Christ and His blood shed for sinners.
A right understanding of the doctrines of grace always has believed this.

You say;

the point is all men may obtain salvation through Christ if they accept him as their personal savior in pardon of sins. Christ provides the opportunity for all men to join the elect.

People do not.....join the elect... As if it were a club or a team.
If they savingly believe they give witness to the fact that the Spirit has enabled them to believe!
I never see this phrase used in acts or anywhere else-

if they accept him as their personal savior

I do see this used ;

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Logos.....can you "accept" this terminology. God makes the elect ACCEPTED.
If we can use the biblical language we could agree much more:1_grouphug:

 

[Logos1]

Logos.....can you "accept" this terminology. God makes the elect ACCEPTED. If we can use the biblical language we could agree much more:1_grouphug:

I'm not about getting hung up on how 2,000 year old Koine greek gets translated into modern day english. You can pick and choose what constitutes biblical language. Some Translations don't even look like the same verse. Most scholars wouldn't even say the KJV used the best greek manuscripts.

KJV...To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

NIV....to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

HCSV...to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved

NLT...So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son

CEB...and to honor his glorious grace that he has given to us freely through the Son whom he loves

NASB...to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

CEB...God was very kind to us because of the Son he dearly loves, and so we should praise God.

GWT...so that the kindness he had given us in his dear Son would be praised and given glory

If you want to work only off the KJV version I don't have a problem at all accepting the phrase "God makes the elect accepted." I think we need to find or reject common ground on the idea behind the language not the hair splitting of the language or else we will never get any where. I think we are both beyond that kind of child's play.

I'm about the idea behind the language and if the idea you are driving at in "God makes the elect accepted" is that Christ not man makes us accepted into the presence of God I think everyone Calvinist, non-calvinist, or anyone else would agree with you that we are saved by grace. We are saved by the propitiation of Christ not our own doing.

If you are driving at the "chosen before the foundation of the world" in the verses above then we may have found disagreement. I would say you would be correct in saying he chose to save the elect before the foundation of the world. The term elect denoting the corporate body of individual believers. It’s the corporate body spoken of here not the individual believers. Calvin and his followers seem to mix the two up.

The bible tells us that all men have been provided the path through Christ to salvation. Man need only use the free will God endowed him with to choose salvation to be numbered among the elect--and be in that corporate body of believers saved by Christ. If he doesn't accept the offer of salvation then he won't be in the corporate body of the elect. God doesn't force you into one group or the other because he preordained you to damnation or salvation.

You can't say God offers salvation to all men and then forces some to turn down the offer. The bible doesn't tell us God does that. He provides the opportunity of salvation to all men through Christ and you either choose to accept or not to accept Christ as your personal savior.

"How old are you? You do act rather young."...Jarthur001

Grandpa, how long before I'm as old as you?