Calvin denied Lucifer is Satan

[Logos1560]

Rick, can give me the source for Andrew Lanc preaching Lucifer as Jesus in Peter?

My quotation listed the source. It is in a book entitled: Lancelot Andrewes: Selected Writings edited by P. E. Hewison.

In a sermon, KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes referred to "St Peter's Lucifer in cordibus [daystar in your hearts]" (Hewison, Selected Writings, p. 112).

An edition of the Latin Vulgate printed with the 1538 Coverdale’s English translation of its New Testament has “lucifer oriator in cordib” in its Latin text at 2 Peter 1:19 with its rendering in English as “the day star arise in your hearts”. Lancelot Andrewes evidently cited or used the Latin Vulgate’s word Lucifer in his sermon with the meaning “daystar.” Daystar is Old English for morning star.

 

[John of Japan]

Back to main topic:

Satan is Lucifer or not?

This is a general Baptist belief.

Actually, it is not a Baptist belief. I just this week taught the Baptist distinctives to one person, and then discussed them with another person. What one believes about Lucifer and Satan has absolutely nothing to do with Baptist doctrine. I've taught Baptist doctrine in two Japanese Bible institutes and in a Baptist Bible college, and the subject has never once come up in all these years of teaching. Not a single Baptist student has asked about it or wanted to discuss it.

 

[KJB1611reader]

Actually, it is not a Baptist belief. I just this week taught the Baptist distinctives to one person, and then discussed them with another person. What one believes about Lucifer and Satan has absolutely nothing to do with Baptist doctrine. I've taught Baptist doctrine in two Japanese Bible institutes and in a Baptist Bible college, and the subject has never once come up in all these years of teaching. Not a single Baptist student has asked about it or wanted to discuss it.

Okay, I thought everyone knew this...

 

[KJB1611reader]

My actual thought was this was generally believed in baptist circles not an actual 'article of faith or distinctive.'

 

[KJB1611reader]

@KJB1611reader

If I may make a small suggestion that may help you in your studies -

Keep reading your KJV but also include the NKJV. This will give you more perspective as both are legitimate transkations. Just don't get caught up where they use different words.

Keep in mind that the KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV abd NASB are all legitimate translations of the source text they use. They are all God's Word.

Remember that when you read an English language Bible you are reading a translation.

Invest in a book or course that teaches how to read Scripture. This helps bridge the gap between ancient texts and modern thought. I recommend Grasping God's Word. This will not give you interpretations or doctrine, but it will help develop a method and prevent many errors.

I only have a kjb in print, I could get a niv if I wanted. I did get a gnt new testament from the Bookstore though.

 

[Dave G]

Lucifer and "Satan" are one and the same.

This understanding ( at least of mine ) is based on comparing what's said about Lucifer falling like a star from Heaven, all references in God's word regarding a "dragon" whose tail gathered 1/3 of the host of Heaven with it, and all that is stated about the believer's adversary, Satan.

Of special interest to me is Isaiah 14, where "Lucifer" is described not only as the "son of the morning" ( not "day star" or "morning star" as some have mistranslated it in several places ), but as the one who said in his heart, "I will be like the Most High" in his arrogance.
This describes Satan perfectly...
My adversary and the one who led a revolt in Heaven and was cast out and to the earth.

To me, the "KJV" ( which is the only translation in English that I read from ), is correct and accurate in far more ways than any other English translation ever produced since it came into being some 400 years ago.

As I see it, it is God's word in English and there is none better, even today, in that language.

 

[KJB1611reader]

Who is Mezediech in Genesis? Who is king of Tyre in Ezekiel? In.garden, the.anointed.cherub.

 

[Logos1560]

Of special interest to me is Isaiah 14, where "Lucifer" is described not only as the "son of the morning" ( not "day star" or "morning star" as some have mistranslated it in several places ), but as the one who said in his heart, "I will be like the Most High" in his arrogance.

The rendering "day star" and "morning star" are synonyms for Lucifer, and they likely are the result of the influence of the Latin-based rendering "Lucifer".

If morning star is a mistranslation as you allege, that likewise means that "Lucifer" would be a mistranslation.

The 1828 Webster's Dictionary defined daystar as following: "The morning star, Lucifer, Venus; the star which precedes the morning light." In her 1997-1998 catalogue, Riplinger claimed that the 1828 Webster's Dictionary "defines words as they were used during the writing of the KJV 1611." The 1992 Roget's International Thesaurus listed as synonyms: "morning star, day star, Lucifer, Phosphor, Phosphorus" (p. 757). Rodale’s Synonym Finder listed the following as synonyms for morning star: “daystar, bright planet; Venus, Lucifer, Phosphor, Phosphorus” (p. 750). The preponderance of evidence shows that the renderings "Lucifer," "daystar," and "morning star" were used as synonyms so that any arguments which can be validly used again the rendering "morning star" in this verse would also apply to the rendering "Lucifer."

 

[JonC]

Who is Mezediech in Genesis? Who is king of Tyre in Ezekiel? In.garden, the.anointed.cherub.

I am unfamiliar with Mezediech.

The king of Tyre in Ezekiel was Ithobaal III or Nebuchadnezzar II (Nebuchadnezzar II besiged Tyre for 13 years, so I don't think we can know definitively was king at that time) and the passage, IMHO, towards his destruction is a "dual passage". It uses imagery not only about the king but about the power behind the king (Satan..."Satan" means adversary...the verse is about their present advasary and the spiritual force).


What you seem not able to grasp is that what was occurring in Scrioture were REAL events "on the ground" AND foreshadowing greater things.

God REALLY DID deliver Israel from Egypt AND that deliverance foreshadowed a greater deliverance.

 

[Dave G]

" I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star." ( Revelation 22:16 ).

According to the above, the Lord Jesus is the bright and morning star...not Lucifer.
I'll believe His words, regardless of what men may say.

 

[JonC]

" I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star." ( Revelation 22:16 ).

According to the above, the Lord Jesus is the bright and morning star...not Lucifer.
I'll believe His words, regardless of what men may say.

But according to Isaiah, the king in that passage is the bright and morning star. Do you believe the OT?

Obviously neither that king or Jesus is literally the planet Venus.

In Ezekiek it was a taunt demonstrating how low God will bring the king, and perhaps also a type of how low God will bring, or has brought, the "advesary", or Satan.

When Jesus uses the symbolism it is not to demonstrate how low one will be brought but to describe His preeminence.

 

[John of Japan]

My actual thought was this was generally believed in baptist circles not an actual 'article of faith or distinctive.'

This I wouldn't know unless we took an actual poll.

 

[JonC]

This I wouldn't know unless we took an actual poll.

Poll! Poll! Poll!!

 

[KJB1611reader]

Actually I don't know, I.think it was that one kidschurch lesson we learnt on this. Than it just stuck with me. When I say generally, you are supposed to know what I am implying.

 

[KJB1611reader]

Well, this is new, Ezekiel in previous conversations and.videos: it was Satan.

 

[JonC]

I only have a kjb in print, I could get a niv if I wanted. I did get a gnt new testament from the Bookstore though.

I use online Bibles often. Also, there are some good tools you can use to compare translations and look up words.

I think decades ago more people believed "Lucifer" was Satan's name due to a lack of information avaliable (I'm old enough to remember how much a pain research was. And we have the movies where Lucifer is Satain's name, snd he is red and has horns and a tail.

Today I believe it is commonly known that "Lucifer" is the Latin and the actual word is helel, the morning star

But superstition and tradition dies hard. I wouldn't be surprised if some argue it is heresy to deny there were three wise men in Bethlehem.

 

[KJB1611reader]

I use online Bibles often. Also, there are some good tools you can use to compare translations and look up words.

I think decades ago more people believed "Lucifer" was Satan's name due to a lack of information avaliable (I'm old enough to remember how much a pain research was. And we have the movies where Lucifer is Satain's name, snd he is red and has horns and a tail.

Today I believe it is commonly known that "Lucifer" is the Latin and the actual word is helel, the morning star

But superstition and tradition dies hard. I wouldn't be surprised if some argue it is heresy to deny there were three wise men in Bethlehem.

I dislike using a phone to read.

 

[JonC]

Well, this is new, Ezekiel in previous conversations and.videos: it was Satan.

Not new, but new to you. Probably depends on who you are watching.

For most of Christian history "Lucifer" was not thought to be Satan's name. That idea is relatively new.

The majority of Christian scholars reject the idea that "Lucifer" is Satan's name, but most do view parallels and the verse as speaking also to Satan (the larger adversary...like the Egyptian Pharoah).

 

[KJB1611reader]

I have a nkjv/esv/niv at home....

 

[KJB1611reader]

Not new, but new to you. Probably depends on who you are watching.

For most of Christian history "Lucifer" was not thought to be Satan's name. That idea is relatively new.

The majority of Christian scholars reject the idea that "Lucifer" is Satan's name, but most do view parallels and the verse as speaking also to Satan (the larger adversary...like the Egyptian Pharoah).

Untrue.