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Calvin, the man
- Thread starter doulous
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I find it hypocritical that you would assassinate the character of Calvin and make him out to be a monster, only to follow that up with a statement that shows that you not only hope he goes to hell, but that he will endure extra suffering reserved for the worst of the worst. This makes you sound like the kind of person you're making Calvin out to be. Perhaps in another time or place, you'd have burned him at the stake.
Magnetic Poles
New Member
No, I don't burn anyone, nor would I promote it. I am merely saying that those who claim to speak for God have a higher standard. Calvin falls very short. And yes, he was a monster. Worship & admiration of him is sad.
I also agree that him being evil doesn't negate all of what he said. Still, it makes him far less of a role model than some here proclaim him to be.
As for character assassination, no, the historical record speaks for itself, as do Calvin's actions. I find anyone who even condones torture and death for those with whom they disagree, to be an evil person.
[ April 25, 2006, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Magnetic Poles ]
I also agree that him being evil doesn't negate all of what he said. Still, it makes him far less of a role model than some here proclaim him to be.
As for character assassination, no, the historical record speaks for itself, as do Calvin's actions. I find anyone who even condones torture and death for those with whom they disagree, to be an evil person.
[ April 25, 2006, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Magnetic Poles ]
Magnetic Poles
New Member
Nope. Did I say I am happy that this could be the case? No!
Learn to understand a metaphorical phrase is just that. I don't believe in varying levels of hell.
Learn to understand a metaphorical phrase is just that. I don't believe in varying levels of hell.
Calvibaptist
New Member
*Special Note to this post* I am not in any way suggesting that Calvin is on par or anywhere near to Scripture or anyone that was inspired by God to do what they did and say what they said.
Now, that aside, M.P., are you suggesting that anyone who kills another human being because of that person's belief system by a means we would consider torture is evil?
You need to re-read the Old Testament, where many people were put to death by stoning, hanging, being hacked to pieces, etc. because they followed another religion besides that of Judaism. AND, this death was prescribed by God.
Was Calvin a sinner? Yes. Should he be worshipped? Absolutely not. Should he be admired? I don't really care to admire him either. Does any of this have any effect on whether he was right biblically about God's sovereignty and man's responsibility? No.
SO... when discussing in other threads about Calvin's theology, please stop talking about his supposed sins. They mean absolutely nothing in relation to any discussion we are having.
Now, that aside, M.P., are you suggesting that anyone who kills another human being because of that person's belief system by a means we would consider torture is evil?
You need to re-read the Old Testament, where many people were put to death by stoning, hanging, being hacked to pieces, etc. because they followed another religion besides that of Judaism. AND, this death was prescribed by God.
Was Calvin a sinner? Yes. Should he be worshipped? Absolutely not. Should he be admired? I don't really care to admire him either. Does any of this have any effect on whether he was right biblically about God's sovereignty and man's responsibility? No.
SO... when discussing in other threads about Calvin's theology, please stop talking about his supposed sins. They mean absolutely nothing in relation to any discussion we are having.
Magnetic Poles
New Member
Calvi, I am very aware of atrocities in the OT. That doesn't mean they are not evil, especially by today's standards.
When a thread is titled "Calvin, the man", I believe his actions are fair game, as they are part of the man.
When a thread is titled "Calvin, the man", I believe his actions are fair game, as they are part of the man.
So when men do what God tells them to do (stone a person for doing X), then this is an atrocity and evil?
What do today's standards have to do with God's commands in the OT?
Perhaps you didn't read Calvi's post carefully. Or perhaps you did, and you disagree with the way God handles things.
IMO, Luther stated the same principles more clearly (and arguably with more passion) in Bondage of the Will. It's a shame Calvin gets all the credit.
I have to agree that the character assassination against Calvin deserves to be corrected, but I don't think this forum is necessarily the place to do that. I also don't think anyone will change his/her mind. People who hate (fear) Calvinism enough to assassinate the character of Calvin himself are going to accuse Calvin of being a monster no matter what the facts may be, no matter what the circumstance of history may have been, and so on.
I truly dislike the hate speech and lies about Calvin. Does one think it somehow makes the system of biblical reformed theology moot?
Calvin DID NOT murder anyone. And I will tolerate to lies by "haters" here.
BTW, he was not a SAINT either, so any trying to cannonize him will find themselves on the wrong end of a fight with me as well.
Calvin DID NOT murder anyone. And I will tolerate to lies by "haters" here.
BTW, he was not a SAINT either, so any trying to cannonize him will find themselves on the wrong end of a fight with me as well.
Jarthur001
Active Member
How do you feel about David?
Saul has killed his thousands but David his tens of thousands
God didn't let David build Gods house because of the blood on his hands, but God did let him write a few good books that many have been blessed with.
Do you think we should pull some of the Psalms from the Bible?
Or...is it true that a person can do wrong, yet still be right in their writings?
Can we read and agree with the words, and disagree with the life of the man?
Some claim Soloman was never saved. There is no clear passage saying he repented and turned to God. The only hint we have of Solomans possible conversion is at the end of one of his books. But no where does it say he followed though with this.
Most of what is said about Soloman is bad in the Bible. Yet God seen fit to let him write a few books that have blessed many, and are in the Bible. Being that he may not even be saved...should we pull these books?
I'm glad God forgives sins.
In Christ..James
[ April 25, 2006, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Jarthur001 ]
Calvibaptist
New Member
And that Samuel, too. I was going to offer him as a role model, but he hacked Agag to pieces. Let's write him off.
What about Elijah. Man, what a great prophet. We can learn a lot about faithfulness and trusting in God from him. OOOOPPPSSS!! He killed a few hundred prophets of Baal just for being false prophets (sounds kind of like what Calvin did). Better not listen to a thing he said or call him a role model.
Utter silliness...
What about Elijah. Man, what a great prophet. We can learn a lot about faithfulness and trusting in God from him. OOOOPPPSSS!! He killed a few hundred prophets of Baal just for being false prophets (sounds kind of like what Calvin did). Better not listen to a thing he said or call him a role model.
Utter silliness...
Calvibaptist
New Member
BTW, I don't think Calvin should be a role model either. I don't even believe everything he wrote. But to impugn his doctrine because he was just like every other reformer of his day is ridiculous.
Dr. Bob, are you a Civil War historian? Nice to meet you. Civil War history is something I enjoy. Union leanings here. I grew up in Kearny, NJ..named after General Phil Kearny.Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Isn't there TWO "n's" in cannon . . or am a shooting off my own foot here!!
I'm almost ready to be off to our college class I'm teaching on Civil War history! We're in the Peninsular Campaign/Seven Day Battle. Ugh.
My "favorite" Civil War battle sto study were Antietam and Shiloh and Hoods Atlanta/Nashville Campaighn of 1864. I also had a great interest in the Louisiana Tiger Brigade which fought with jacson in the Valley. Yes, I'm a former Civil War buff. I also studied the American revolution and trhe war of 1812 a lot.
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