Calvin, the man

[Skandelon]

On this point, I have a question to present. Believers often talk about how God would never contradict his revealed truth in scripture and this way we can know if God is telling us to do this or that. But in this case and in the case of Abraham with his son, isn't God giving a command to do something that contradicts scriptures teachings?

What if someone comes to you and says they are certain God has told them to murder someone? Can we rightly say, "God would never tell you to do that because it contradicts his word?" Further, wouldn't we all pick up the phone and call the police after that conversation?

 

[kyredneck]

......I'm playing the devil's advocate here.

You play the part well....

What about "thou shalt not kill (commit murder)?"

I'll amplify 'thou shalt not kill', to read, 'Thou shall not shed innocent blood'.

....the Servetus matter....

What about the 'Stephen matter'. Think maybe Stephen and Paul are in Glory together now with Christ? Think maybe Servetus and Calvin are in Glory together now with Christ?

I think Paul felt like a dog when the enormity of his error dawned upon him. I can't help but think that the 'Servetus matter' disturbed Calvin also.

What about the adulteress whom Jesus saved from stoning? I don't recall Jesus condemning the stoning.

He didn't condemn them because by the law they were correct. 'Let him that is without sin cast the first stone.' And beginning with the oldest of them down to the youngest, they all left. The fact is that if any of them would have stayed to bear witness against her, Christ would have been bound by the law to allow the stoning.

Now, please don't misread me. I'm trying to make a point. These events reflected a culture, mores and ethos of their times. That doesn't make them right, it just makes them understandable.

I agree with you teetotally.

And it is inconsistent to applaud Moses for obeying God's command and condemn Calvin for believing he was doing the same thing.

I can't answer that. I actually feel for Servetus and Calvin both. The bottom line, to me, is that there is no real justice in the letter of the law. It's a machine that demands to be obeyed and shows no favor. Not like Grace at all.

 

[saturneptune]

I can't answer that. I actually feel for Servetus and Calvin both. The bottom line, to me, is that there is no real justice in the letter of the law. It's a machine that demands to be obeyed and shows no favor. Not like Grace at all.

Over time, I have gained more respect for Calvin the man. First of all, we really do not know exactly what happened in detail between Servetus, Calvin and the state. We tend to compare what seems to be an outrageous act with the way our culture is today. Things were very different back then. Religion and the state were very close if not the same.

I have also come to disagree those who say you must agree with all of Calvin's writings to believe in his five points. One does not have to believe in sprinkling to agree with the rest of his writings. He was obviously a brilliant man, in addition to being devoted to his faith.

Like everyone else, he was also a flawed human being. The point is, compared to me, the man contributed to an understanding of Scripture that I will never begin to achieve, so who am I to criticize? Even if one of his five points is wrong, he still contributed more than all the rest of us combined.

We are also in debt to people like Wesley, Knox, Luther, and Augustine. God has used people in mighty ways.

 

[Rippon]

Over time, I have gained more respect for Calvin the man.

WOW! That is really stunning. You have said some rather harsh things in the past about him as recently as a few months ago.

I have also come to disagree those who say you must agree with all of Calvin's writings to believe in his five points.

They aren't "his" to begin with. The points were in response to the five propositions of the Remonstrants originally penned in 1610 and brought to the Synod of Dort eight years later.

He was obviously a brilliant man, in addition to being devoted to his faith.

All very true.

Like everyone else, he was also a flawed human being. The point is, compared to me, the man contributed to an understanding of Scripture that I will never begin to achieve,

Agreed.

so who am I to criticize?

Anyone should feel free to criticize Calvin or anyone else. The thing I'm concerned with is honesty. Many flippantly demean him with such blatantly false reports.

Even if one of his five points is wrong,

Where di you get the idea that he came up with the so-called five points?

With which of the five Calvinistic propositions do you take issue?

he still contributed more than all the rest of us combined.

Agreed.

We are also in debt to people like Knox, Luther, and Augustine. God has used people in mighty ways.

Any many more.

 

[saturneptune]

With which of the five Calvinistic propositions do you take issue?

I do not take issue with any of them. I was making the point that he made a tremendous contribution regardless of the amount he wrote.

 

[Benjamin]

Rippon, you left "Wesley" off of saturneptune's quote? ...Shocker!

 

[Rippon]

I do not take issue with any of them. I was making the point that he made a tremendous contribution regardless of the amount he wrote.

He didn't come up with any of the five points.

 

[Rippon]

Rippon, you left "Wesley" off of saturneptune's quote? ...Shocker!

This is a Calvinistic thread.:laugh:

Actually the Lord can work mightily through any vessel -- even one as doctrinally deficient as Wesley. Even the Pelagian Charles Finney was used on occasion despite the huge problem he had with the Bible.

Gordon H.Clark, who was a very strong Calvinist came to a saving faith at a Billy Sunday sermon. That Arminian lay-preacher in the barn on that snowy winter's day was instrumental in Spurgeon's conversion. A similiar set of circumstances was when Toplady (sort of an Anglican John Gill) was brought under conviction with a rather Arminian lay-preacher. And more examples can be adduced.

 

[saturneptune]

He didn't come up with any of the five points.

Everyone of them are in his writings in some form.

 

[pinoybaptist]

No, I don't burn anyone, nor would I promote it. I am merely saying that those who claim to speak for God have a higher standard. Calvin falls very short. And yes, he was a monster. Worship & admiration of him is sad.

We ALL fall short of any standard, especially God's. No one on this board is worshipping him, so brush the sadness away.

I also agree that him being evil doesn't negate all of what he said. Still, it makes him far less of a role model than some here proclaim him to be.

And again, no one here says he SHOULD be a role model. If there is anything the Calvinists here share with Calvin, it is an agreement at the theological conclusions he arrived at, and perhaps a little admiration for the eloquence of the man in putting forth his thoughts, which we all at one time or the other felt for others.
Dr. David Jeremiah is not a Calvinist, yet I find myself admiring his eloquence in describing the Christ of the Revelation and invariably drawn to make sure my car radio is tuned in to his station.
Does that mean I am a Jeremiah-ist ?

 

[Rippon]

I do not take issue with any of them. I was making the point that he made a tremendous contribution regardless of the amount he wrote.

This is where I just don't understand what you are saying. What do you mean by : "regardless of the amount he wrote." That sounds like you're saying he came up with the so-called five points. Please explain.

 

[Rippon]

His Infuence On The Modern World

I purchased a little book a while back. I finshed it a month or so ago. I think it is valuable to share some things from it.

Over one thousand people heard Calvin's lectures on a daily basis. (p.60)

Calvin confronted even the elected officials in his congregation. One 1552 sermon so irritated the Council that they inquired just why Calvin spoke of the Senators and other civil rulers as "arguing against God," "mocking him," "rejecting all the Holy Scriptures [to] vomit forth their blasphemies as supreme decrees," and as "gargoyle monkeys [who] have become so proud." (p.61)

The Genevan church sent over 100 missionaries to France,Brazil, Itlay, Hollans, and England before 1562. (p.64)

...it would be impossible for a man to be so dearly loved at his death if he had been a monster all his life. (p.66)

The widespread notice and sadness at his death should serve to correct any faulty view that Calvin's contemporaries either despised him or underestimated him. (p.75)

* He acknowledged his admiration for Luther and other Reformers instead of viewing them as rivals to be criticized. He was not, in other words, the only leader on the block.
* He sought to serve out of the limelight instead of going on a lecture tour.
* He left Basle quietly after composing the Institutes, one of the classic pieces of Reformation literature.
* He humbly exited Geneva upon his first exile and did not hurl invectives at those who treated him so badly.
* He avoided seeking to be the only visible leader, often calling to his side those with equal or greater intellectual ability.
* He gladly served in the church and did not aspire to political or corporate power.
* When he was about to pass away, he evaluated his own accomplishments with considerable modesty.
* He did not design a system of corporate governace that gave him more authority than others. (p.76)

Taken from The Legacy of John Calvin by David Hall 15BN 978-1-59638-05-1 P&R Publishing Co. P.O. Box 817 Phillipsburg,N.J. 08865 www.prpbooks.com

 

[Rippon]

Over time, I have gained more respect for Calvin the man. First of all, we really do not know exactly what happened in detail between Servetus, Calvin and the state. We tend to compare what seems to be an outrageous act with the way our culture is today. Things were very different back then. Religion and the state were very close if not the same.

One does not have to believe in sprinkling to agree with the rest of his writings. He was obviously a brilliant man, in addition to being devoted to his faith.

Like everyone else, he was also a flawed human being. The point is, compared to me, the man contributed to an understanding of Scripture that I will never begin to achieve, so who am I to criticize?

You are so right. I fully agree!

 

[Luke2427]

From what I’ve read about him and taking into consideration the writers agendas. I think I would be very apprehensive being back in that day to insult his gospel being under his authority of power. I reverence no man living or dead and feel admirers of his doctrines building him up and labeling themselves with his name problematic and contrary to many teachings in the Bible but in fairness I also find it problematic to attempt to make out this man the devil. I’m sure he was a very devoted, faithful man of God but I would perceive him as very controlling in his personal beliefs and judging those of the contrary as enemies of the truth. I find the C/A debate useful as an exercise to study the Word but find both systems to be very arrogantly presented as absolutes and would never call myself anything but a Christian and trust only in God’s Words.

Do you call yourself an American?

WELL!! YOU AMERIGO VESPUCCI WORSHIPER!

It is a senseless position to claim that one has no regard for the teaching of any man.

To ignore the contributions of men God raised up to benefit the Kingdom is not noble.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

First of all, Calvin was involved in other deaths besides that of Servetus. From Wikipedia:



Secondly, Calvin could indeed have spared Servetus, but instead, wholeheartedly supported the execution on the basis of Servetus not believing in the Trinity. His one concession was to favor the sword rather than burning. Some consession, but still the fire it was. Calvin has blood on his hands, and his practices carried on to the mindset that fostered the infamous Salem Witch Trials, in which innocent young girls were murdered at the hands of religious fanatics.

No, you cannot whitewash the bloody legacy of John Calvin. He, like Torquemada, did not believe in the freedom of religion and freedom of conscience that are hallmarks of a free and civilized society. There is a special place in hell for those who try to force belief at the end of a sword, by fire, or threat of other annihilation.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: Credible!

 

[quantumfaith]

John Calvin is a saint -- as are all believers . It is a shame that the RC's hijacked a perfectely good word to their ends and therefore have given it a connotative meaning which is so widespread .

I was surprised that it took this long for someone for find something to blame on the Catholics.

 

[quantumfaith]

Do you call yourself an American?

WELL!! YOU AMERIGO VESPUCCI WORSHIPER!

It is a senseless position to claim that one has no regard for the teaching of any man.

To ignore the contributions of men God raised up to benefit the Kingdom is not noble.

Here we go again, what is it Round 14?

 

[Luke2427]

Here we go again, what is it Round 14?

What are you talking about?

 

[Robert Snow]

Let's discuss Calvin again. The worst thing about Calvin, isn't his personal life, although it seems rather dubious. The worst thing is the doctrinal error he propagated. It is spreading in Baptist circles like a cancer. Hopefully, this error will be seen for what it is by bible-believers.

 

[Rippon]

Let's discuss Calvin again. The worst thing about Calvin, isn't his personal life, although it seems rather dubious. The worst thing is the doctrinal error he propagated. It is spreading in Baptist circles like a cancer. Hopefully, this error will be seen for what it is by bible-believers.

What doctrinal error? He taught/preached many Biblical doctrines a number of which are not associated with what many non-Cals identify with dreaded Calvinism.

What I suggested on another thread is what I recommend again to you:The Golden Booklet Of The True Christian Life. Or get a book of his sermons or even a book of his letters. Instead of going into a reflex-mode --actually read what he wrote for yourself. You'll be surprised how much you will agree with him.And you might even benefit spiritually.

This thread is about Calvin. But I want to emphasize that Calvinism isn't about knowing all the doctrines Calvin taught. The Bible is the respository for that --God's Holy,inspired Word. Yet,Calvin,Owen,Gill,Pink,M-L-J, and Boice (among many others) are men who were deeply taught from the Scriptures.We can use their help and guidance to understand the Bible better.