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Calvin Was A Man...

TCGreek

New Member
David Lamb said:
But you keep telling "us" we are wrong, and we keep assuring you that despite the nickname of "Calvinism", we believe as we do because we find it in the bible, and not, I repeat not because John Calvin taught it. (If I believed things because John Calvin taught them, I wouldn't be a Baptist.) So in what way are we being any more divisive than you?

1. You have labored and labored, yet they will not have it any other way.

2. Their minds are already made; nothing we say will change that.

3. I know of one gentleman who came under the pretence that he doesn't know much about Calvinism, yet he has asked that it be banned as a heresy.

4. Frankly speaking, it would be good not to enter into debates unless someone is truly seeking to understand why we are dubbed Calvinists. But for the most part, on BB, not a few are set against what is called Calvinism.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
TCGreek said:
1. You have labored and labored, yet they will not have it any other way.

2. Their minds are already made; nothing we say will change that.

3. I know of one gentleman who came under the pretence that he doesn't know much about Calvinism, yet he has asked that it be banned as a heresy.

4. Frankly speaking, it would be good not to enter into debates unless someone is truly seeking to understand why we are dubbed Calvinists. But for the most part, on BB, not a few are set against what is called Calvinism.

Indeed you are right my friend. For this reason I have cut way back on my posting.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Tom Butler said:
I think JArthur has demonstrated why we cannot have unity this side of heaven.

To achieve the unity Linda 64 and others want, JArthur will have to renounce his soteriology. Others will have to renounce baptismal regeneration and paedobaptism.

When James insisted that the basis of unity started with the adoption of Calvinism, 2Timothy reacted negatively. And predictably. Are there any non-Cals here who will give up their soteriology in the name of Christian unity?

To be sure, there are some who believe that despite differences, we can all rally around evangelism and missions. To do so, however, requires that certain doctrines be de-emphasized (doctrine divides, you know).

So the larger question remains: What are we willing to do to achieve unity in Christ?
Maybe I've deceived myself, but I believe I can have unity with my Calvinistic brothers and sisters because we both believe the Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, sinless life, death and resurrection. We both believe He is the ONLY way and that we are given eternal life by grace through faith, not of works. We both love the Lord with our whole hearts.

I see both predestination and free will all through the scriptures. I am not going to be so stubborn as to say otherwise. I have enjoyed the discussions with my Calvin friends. There are a few that are super hyper-c and I do not have much in common with them.
But, unity can be attained simply by loving one another the way our Lord commanded.

I will not seek unity in situations where the very basics of our faith is in question, such as the diety of Christ, His authority to remove all sin (ME doctrine), the Trinity, the inerrancy of scripture, ect. (I think you get the idea). These are unbiblical and un-Christian doctrines and there can be no unity between these beliefs and mine.
 

JustChristian

New Member
TCGreek said:
1. No well-bred Calvinist begins and ends with the writings of Calvin.

2. Therefore, it is a fallacy to argue continuously that Calvin didn't believe in this or that point.

3. It is an affront to Calvinists to say that we are depended on Calvin for the Doctrines of grace. There are many things that Calvin taught that I do not embrace. For example, I do not embrace infant baptism, but Calvin did (see Book IV, CH. XVI ).

4. The bottomline is this, Are the Doctrines of grace , commonly called Calvinism, biblical?

Based on your first three points, what are the doctrines of Grace (without referring to Calvin's theology)?
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You can find the doctrine(s) of grace in plenty of biblical locations . Try these chapters just for starters : Luke 10 ; John 6,10,17 ; Romans 3,8,9 ,11 ; Ephesians 1,2,5 . That's Grace 101 .
 

TCGreek

New Member
BaptistBeliever said:
Based on your first three points, what are the doctrines of Grace (without referring to Calvin's theology)?

Would the Scriptures work? I believe the capable Rippon has given you a start. But if you want scriptural references from me, I'll be glad to oblige.
 

Amy.G

New Member
TCGreek said:
Would the Scriptures work? I believe the capable Rippon has given you a start. But if you want scriptural references from me, I'll be glad to oblige.
TC, Rippon, would you post the verses that go with the chapters that Rippon posted?

I think one would be Luke 10:22.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Amy.G said:
TC, Rippon, would you post the verses that go with the chapters that Rippon posted?

I think one would be Luke 10:22.
This may help....

From the London Baptist Confession of Faith dated 1644

XXI.

That Christ Jesus by His death did bring fourth salvation and reconciliation only for the(1) elect, which were those which(2) God the Father gave Him; and that the Gospel which is to be preached to all men as the ground of faith, is, that(3) Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the ever blessed God, filled with the perfection of all heavenly and spiritual excellencies, and that salvation is only and alone to be had through the believing in His name.

1) John 15:13; Rom. 8:32-34; 5:11; 3:25
2) Job 17:2 with 6:37
3) Mat. 16:16; Luke 2:26; John 6:9; 7:3; 20:31; 1 John 5:11

XXII.

That faith is the(1) gift of God wrought in the hearts of the elect by the Spirit of God, whereby they come to see, know, and believe the truth of the(2) Scriptures, and not only so, but the excellency of them above all other writing and things in the world, as they hold forth the glory of God in His attributes, the excellency of Christ in His nature and offices, and the power of the fullness of the Spirit in His workings and operations; and thereupon are enabled to cast the weight of their souls upon this truth thus believed.

1) Eph. 2:8; John 6:29; 4:10; Phil. 1:29; Gal. 5:22
2) John 17:17; Heb. 4:11-12; John 6:63

XXIII.

Those that have this precious faith wrought in them by the Spirit, can never finally nor totally fall away; and though many storms and floods do arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon, but shall be kept by the power of God to salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being formerly engraven upon the palms of God's hands.

Mat. 7:24, 25; John 13:1; 1 Peter 1:4-6; Isa. 49:13-16

XXIV.

That faith is ordinarily(1) begot by the preaching of the Gospel, or word of Christ, without respect to(2) any power or capacity in the creature, but it is wholly(3) passive, being dead in sins and trespasses, does believe, and is converted by no less power,(4) then that which raised Christ from the dead.

1) Rom. 10:17; 1 Cor. 1:21
2) Rom. 9:16
3) Rom. 2:1, 2; Ezek. 16:6; Rom 3:12
4) Rom. 1:16; Eph. 1:19; Col 2:12

XXV.

That the tenders of the Gospel to the conversion of sinners,(1) is absolutely free, no way requiring, as absolutely necessary, any qualifications, preparations, terrors of the Law, or preceding ministry of the Law, but only and alone the naked soul, as a(2) sinner and ungodly to receive Christ, as Christ, as crucified, dead, and buried, and risen again, being made(3) a Prince and a Savior for such sinners.

1) John 3:14, 15; 1:12; Isa. 55:1; John 7:37
2) 1 Tim. 1:15; Rom. 4:5; 5:8
3) Acts 5:30-31; 2:36; 1 Cor. 1:22-24

XXVI.

That the same power that converts to faith in Christ, the same power carries on the(1) soul still through all duties, temptations, conflicts, sufferings, and continually what ever a Christian is, he is by(2) grace, and by a constant renewed (3) operation from God, without which he cannot perform any duty to God, or undergo any temptations from Satan, the world, or men.

1) 1 Peter 1:5; 2 Cor. 12:9
2) 1 Cor. 15:10
3) Phil. 2:12, 13; John 15:5; Gal. 2:19-20

XXVII.

That God the Father, and Son, and Spirit, is one with(1) all believers, in their(2) fullness, in(3) relations,(4) as head and members,(5) as house and inhabitants, as(6) husband and wife, one with Him, as(7) light and love, and one with Him in His inheritance, and in all His(8) glory; and that all believers by virtue of this union and oneness with God, are the adopted sons of God, and heirs of Christ, co-heirs and joint heirs with Him of the inheritance of all the promises of this life, and that which is to come.

1) 1 Thes. 1:1; John 14:10, 20; 17:21
2) Col. 2:9, 10; 1:19; John 1:17
3) John 20:17; Heb. 2:11
4) Col. 1:18; Eph. 5:30
5) Eph. 2:22; 1Cor. 3:16-17
6) Isa. 16:5; 2 Cor. 11:3
7) Gal. 3:26
8) John 17:24

XXVIII.

That those which have union with Christ, are justified from all their sins, past,(1) present, and to come, by the blood of Christ; which justification we conceive to be a gracious and free(2) acquittance of a guilty, sinful creature, from all sin by God, through the satisfaction that Christ has made by His death; and this applied in the manifestation of it through faith.

1) John 1:7; Heb 10:14; 9:26; 2 Cor. 5:19; Rom. 3:23
2) Acts 13:38, 39; Rom. 5:1; 3:25, 30

XXIX.

That all believers are a holy and(1) sanctified people, and that sanctification is a spiritual grace of the(2) New Covenant, and effect of the(3) love of God, manifested to the soul, whereby the believer is in(4) truth and reality separated, both in soul and body, from all sin and dead works, through the(5) blood of the everlasting Covenant, whereby he also presents after a heavenly and evangelical perfection, in obedience to all the commands,(6) which Christ as Head and King in this New Covenant has prescribed to him.

1) 1 Cor. 1:1; 1 Peter 2:9
2) Eph. 1:4
3) 1 John 4:16
4) Eph. 4:24
5) Phil. 3:15
6) Mat. 28:20

XXX.

All believers through the knowledge of(1) that justification of life given by the Father, and brought forth by the blood of Christ, have this as their great privilege of that New(2) Covenant, peace with God, and reconciliation, whereby they that were afar off, were brought nigh by(3) that blood, and have (as the Scripture speaks) peace(4) passing all understanding, yes, joy in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, by(5) whom we have received the Atonement.

1) 2 Cor. 5:19
2) Isa. 54:10; 26:12
3) Eph. 2:13-14
4) Phil. 4:7
5) Rom. 5:10-11
The full confession is found here..

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/h.htm
 

Tom Butler

New Member
Amy.G said:
Maybe I've deceived myself, but I believe I can have unity with my Calvinistic brothers and sisters because we both believe the Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, sinless life, death and resurrection. We both believe He is the ONLY way and that we are given eternal life by grace through faith, not of works. We both love the Lord with our whole hearts.

I see both predestination and free will all through the scriptures. I am not going to be so stubborn as to say otherwise. I have enjoyed the discussions with my Calvin friends. There are a few that are super hyper-c and I do not have much in common with them.
But, unity can be attained simply by loving one another the way our Lord commanded.

I will not seek unity in situations where the very basics of our faith is in question, such as the diety of Christ, His authority to remove all sin (ME doctrine), the Trinity, the inerrancy of scripture, ect. (I think you get the idea). These are unbiblical and un-Christian doctrines and there can be no unity between these beliefs and mine.

Amy, you have a sweet, charitable spirit, I do believe that you can have a degree of unity with Calvinists and even believers of other stripes. I belong to a church in which Calvinists are a small minority, yet we have a wonderful harmony and worship well together.

But the goal Linda64 espoused is much larger than unity between two Christians who disagree over Calvinism. It is a unity among all Christians she believes is possible. That's what I meant when I described it as an impossibility this side of heaven. That is, unless all of them were like you.
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Amy , I am going to be presumptuous enough to say that the Calvinists here all appreciate you .
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Amy should feel so honored...I have never gotten the calvinist appreciation award before ;)
 

Amy.G

New Member
webdog said:
Amy should feel so honored...I have never gotten the calvinist appreciation award before ;)
I do!

I would like to thank........:laugh:

Seriously, I appreciate you guys. I have actually learned a lot from my Cal. buddies.

Who knows, I may be a Calvinst myself one day! :eek: ....:laugh:
 

TCGreek

New Member
Amy.G said:
I do!

I would like to thank........:laugh:

Seriously, I appreciate you guys. I have actually learned a lot from my Cal. buddies.

Who knows, I may be a Calvinst myself one day! :eek: ....:laugh:

You'll make a splendid Calvinist. :thumbs:
 

Amy.G

New Member
TCGreek said:
You'll make a splendid Calvinist. :thumbs:
Why, thank you!

Speaking of unity. During the ME debates, I saw Baptists of all stripes come together to refute that false teaching. We were all unified at that time because we had a common goal to defend our faith!
Even though we all have our differences, we are still all the same in that we are God's children and He loves each one of us and we love Him.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
Why, thank you!

Speaking of unity. During the ME debates, I saw Baptists of all stripes come together to refute that false teaching. We were all unified at that time because we had a common goal to defend our faith!
Even though we all have our differences, we are still all the same in that we are God's children and He loves each one of us and we love Him.

That's good to hear. Spurgeon once remarked, "Beware that when the dogs fight, the sheep be ravished."

Meaning, we may spend some time debating, it may get hot, but if we be brethren, let it be to sharpen ourselves, and not forget that there are those out to spread damnables hereies and ravish the sheep.
 

skypair

Active Member
David Lamb said:
We believe in the same Holy Spirit, and I imagine we both believe in the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture.
I am saying that I believe I have the right doctrines and I hope we can agree on them.

As for men creating systems, I have lost count of the number of times that I and others have explained that "The Five Points of Calvinism" did not come into being as a result of Calvin "creating SYSTEMS to explain the Bible", but in answer to the specific five points brought up by the followers of Arminius.
What makes terrific sense to me is that when an "ism" creates whole new vocabulary by which it explains scripture, that theology is reading it's own words and ideas into scripture, wouldn't you say? I mean, "trinity" or "rapture" aside, there are concepts in scripture that have been wrongly understood and then "spalined" to create a "human model" of what God has said -- and it ain't so.


How can you be so certain that there will be unity around Catholicism? Where do you find that in the Bible? It may happen that way, but that is a different thing to saying that it will.
Rev 2:22. Thyatira (according to Larkin's, mine, and others understanding) is the final phase of Catholicism. We have "her" riding the "beast" in Rev 17. IMO, this was confirmed/seen at Korazim in May 2000. Their leader IS the mystery of iniquity -- claims to be Christ vicariously living today. Satan, thus, has always had an AC standing in the wings to feigh Christ following His "imminent coming" for His own.

Sorry, I don't follow your meaning when you say "not of "election" but of salvation". Election is part and parcel of salvation. It is not some new word invented by John Calvin.
Election is "part and parcel" of NT salvation. "Election" is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in sanctification of the saints. Calvinism omits step 1, JUSTIFICATION, and takes its followers immediately to step 2, SANCTIFICATION which they admit is "election"/predestination (Rom 8:29) in eternity past. The assumption among most Christians is that if you are being sanctified, you are already "saved." Not necessarily. Not if you haven't received Christ as Savior first you're not.

But the way you tell it, you make it sound (to me, at least) as if you think that "Calvinists" teach that unsaved sinners are simply to carry on with their sinful lives, and if they happen to be among God's elect, they will be saved.
Since Calvies say it is not their "choice" to be saved but God's, they might just as well "carry on," not in sin but with only a "hope" of that they are "elect" and not damned.

I have tried telling you that such is not the case. I believe, as do you, that a sinner must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Unlike you, I see the bible teaching me that by nature, sinful man cannot believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, nor does he want to be saved.
If one "cannot believe," one cannot be saved, be regenerated, have faith, etc.

For one to believe, it must be his decision based on the gospel whether he is a sinful man or a sinless infant (average age of SBC pastors' conversion is about ~6 years old). Tell me all the entreaties of the Spirit you possibly can, NONE force or make irresistible the saving knowledge of Christ.

Paul answers possible objections to such teaching, in Romans 9.14-24:
Paul merely states that God controls the outcomes -- not the choices of men.

But you keep telling "us" we are wrong, and we keep assuring you that despite the nickname of "Calvinism", we believe as we do because we find it in the bible, and not, I repeat not because John Calvin taught it. (If I believed things because John Calvin taught them, I wouldn't be a Baptist.) So in what way are we being any more divisive than you?
All due respect, but if a "cause" develops 10+ different words or different connotations not given in scripture but that are necessary to "systematize" their theology, those words were developed by men and applied to scripture "line-by-line." Words like:

Sin nature
Total sovereignty
Unconditional election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance (NOT preservation, BTW) of the Saints
total sovereignty of God
Doctrines of grace
Whosoever
All
Etc.

How can one help from reading into scripture (ISOgete) rather than reading our of scripture (EXOgete) when one doesn't like God's words nor to acknowledge the meaning behind them? And whose theology does one come up with when God's words are not respected?

skypair
 

skypair

Active Member
TCGreek said:
4. Frankly speaking, it would be good not to enter into debates unless someone is truly seeking to understand why we are dubbed Calvinists. But for the most part, on BB, not a few are set against what is called Calvinism.
That's not very "frank" if you are referring to me. I have bent over backwards to understand the application you make of some of your doctrine. I have seen the correctness of your "faith is given by God alone" stance. I have admitted that God is in total control but of the outcomes, not of our choices. I have offered a 'compromise' understanding of "sin nature,' suggested that your failure to distinguish soul from spirit is a weakness, etc.

It is y'all that stand firm on doctrines of men/Calvin.

skypair
 
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