No. A simple reading of the text is what's required. That's apparently something beyond your reach.
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Calvin
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
Regarding Calvin's beliefs. Here is what he said about 1 Tim. 2:5:
"The universal term all must must be referred to classes of men, and not to persons; as if he had said, that not only Jews but Gentiles also, not only persons of humble rank, but princes also, were redeemed by the death of Christ."
So, among these classes or groups of people may be found the elect of God.
"The universal term all must must be referred to classes of men, and not to persons; as if he had said, that not only Jews but Gentiles also, not only persons of humble rank, but princes also, were redeemed by the death of Christ."
So, among these classes or groups of people may be found the elect of God.
Regarding 1 John 2:2, Calvin said :
"... the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church. Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world."
"... the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church. Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world."
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
I found these two quotes purported to be by John Calvin. The first one certainly appears to be sound. But the second contradicts it...........
“No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief.”
―John Calvin
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.”--John Calvin
Maybe he had departed from the faith. The Bible says that happens to some. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;1 Timothy 4:1
“No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief.”
―John Calvin
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.”--John Calvin
Maybe he had departed from the faith. The Bible says that happens to some. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;1 Timothy 4:1
Wow, you just can't see it, can you!?
The quotes you just provided are wonderful examples of limited atonement.
How is it you cannot see?
Both are biblically true.
In what way do you understand the second statement contradicting the first?
Also, doesn't this post settle other posts denying Calvinism teaches the first statement (as you just demonstrated otherwise)?
The real issue is not if Calvinism teaches the "gate of salvation is set open to all", as you verify it does with your quote. The real issue is simply you don't understand how both statements can be true. You do not understand how Calvinism believes the gates of salvation are open to all while also believing those who are saved were elected to salvation (so what you seem to argue, sometimes, is that Calvinism does not in fact teach what you just demonstrated it teaches - that the gates are open to all).
I don't think it fair to criticize Calvinism simply because you don't understand how those statements work together in their theology. Until you understand something, you can't really criticize it.
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What you are getting at is what is known as the free offer of the gospel. I believe scripture teaches that the gospel is freely proclaimed to all. God has ordained the preaching of the gospel as the means of salvation. No gospel = no salvation. I do have an issue with some Calvinists who try to play both ends of the issue. If God predestines His elect, then it is impossible for all individuals to respond to the gospel. I know there are Calvinists who are scared to admit this in front of Synergists because of the flack they will receive, but it is what it is. The good news is that we do not have perfect knowledge. We do know what God knows. We know that the gospel is God's means of salvation, and we know that the preaching of the gospel is how God brings in His elect. Therefore Calvinist preachers should proclaim the gospel with power and expectation. This is what Charles Spurgeon did. Spurgeon knew that only the elect would respond to the gospel, but he knew that without the preaching of the gospel there is no conversion.
I agree except with the part that salvation is impossible for some (I agree with Calvin on this part). Salvation is a possibility for all men, if they would only believe they would be saved. It is within their power but not their will (their inability is a matter of the will, not an insufficiency in the sacrifice to that individual person).
But I also see where this view would be inconsistent with Calvinism (depending on the Calvinist, I suppose).
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Yes. I believe it is inconsistent with the Reformed view of predestination and election. 1 Cor. 2:14 teaches that the unsaved person cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. That is otherwise known as total inability. Unless the Holy Spirit illumines the heart no one can believe. But once the Holy Spirit illumines the heart regeneration and justification take place each and every time.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Observe......
“No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief.”
―John Calvin
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.”--John Calvin
To paraphrase, the first Calvin quote says that there's nothing "keeping sinners back" from "entering in"(salvation) except their own unbelief but the second one is telling us that GOD preordained that they would not "enter in". That is a contradiction. Because if he "preordained" that they would not enter in, he had to have also "preordained" their "unbelief", therefore, it was he who "kept them back" in the first place. But of course, that is all fallacy because the God of the Bible did no such thing: Unbelief is ALL that holds anyone back, end of story. The God of the Bible did not preordain anyone to Hell.
Brother, you're grasping at straws here. God is not in heaven and withholding ppl from coming to Him. Its not like His arm is stretched out, His palm pressed against the heads of ppl, pushing them back as the gospel is being proclaimed. Jesus said "you will not come to Me."
Now, all of us, believers and unbelievers alike, were all in the same boat when we were lost. However, God sought us out whilst we were running from Him. The sheep, God actively seeks out and saves. The goats, He leaves them to themselves and their folly.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
The way it works, is that the Comforter aka Spirit of Truth aka Holy Ghost convicts a person's heart of their Sin, God's Righteousness, and God's Judgement. (see John 15:26, John 14:26 and John 16:8) But regeneration only takes place if the heart believes. Read carefully the following........
Acts 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
and.....
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Though the Holy Ghost dealt with his heart, Felix was neither regenerated nor justified because he chose to put it off. Sir, God convicts men, by His Holy Spirit but he forces no one to believe. And when a person refuses to believe or "puts it off" like Felix did, it's his own fault. He will go to Hell because HE rejected God's free pardon of sin, NOT because God "preordained" that he do so.
You see us as believing God does this...
But we see ppl acting like this towards God...
Men, in their fallen state, hate God. Romans 8:7 and Romans 5:10 go as far as to call them His enemies. It is only those who are born of God, love Him. [1 John 4:7]
Which heart in man does the Spirit of God convict?
The one that hates Him or the new one He gives them at regeneration?
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
You see us as believing God does this...
But we see ppl acting like this towards God...
Men, in their fallen state, hate God. Romans 8:7 and Romans 5:10 go as far as to call them His enemies. It is only those who are born of God, love Him. [1 John 4:7]
No I don't believe the first picture is what you're saying.. God did not hold a big hand in front of Felix's face so that he couldn't believe. Neither did God choose not to "enable him" (which is what you guys apparently do believe). But God's Holy Ghost DID speak to Felix's heart which made Felix "tremble:. It was Felix who chose to put it off for a convenient season. God spoke to his heart, sir.
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It helps, I think, to define what you mean by "The reformed view of predestination and election". I say this because Calvin and Luther both seemed to see no contradiction between Calvin's teaching here, and the most noted Reformed scholar taking exception to the doctrines not being mutually exclusive was James Arminius. We need to define "Reformed" in this context.
Look, man at his core is evil. He wants nothing to do with God. He wants everything BUT God. That's why fallen man is His enemy. The only thing that kept Felix back was Felix's evil heart.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
That is correct. His own evil heart. And God did not fail to "predetermine him" from the foundation of the world, or choose not to "enable" him. God "stood at his door and knocked" just like He does for everybody else.
God left Felix to his own wicked heart's desires.
And PLEASE, don't abuse Revelation 3:20 and compare Felix's situation with a church that had went apostate.
You're comparing apples to porcupines.