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Calvin:

LaGrange

Active Member
Hi Everyone,
I’m new and this is my first post. I’m Catholic and a Thomist. I’m not interested in debating but clarifying Calvinistic Theology. I want to understand Calvinism correctly but I wasn’t sure which forum to get on. I’ve been studying Calvin’s Institutes and I’ve studied his “Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God”. Also, I’m also using Louis Berkof’s Systematic Theology to help. I would appreciate it if someone would let me know if this is where I should ask these kinds of questions?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Here's something to start:

A little about me

I am a Christian and a Baptist. I studied theology, graduated from a Baptist university and a Baptist seminary. I am ordained and a licensed preacher (I am licensed by a Baptist church), but I have never pastored a church.

I was a Calvinist for years. I taught Calvinism (when teaching theology), and to be honest I am sure Calvinism influenced by preaching and teaching. I abandoned Calvinism for its’ presuppositions as they were, in my view, too foundational to Calvinistic doctrine to be assumed rather than present in Scripture. Also, I found the assumptions to be inadequately defended when challenged by several scholars.


Calvinistic assumptions

I am assuming by Thomist you are speaking of not only philosophy but also his view of Christ’s work and redemption. If so, you are in a fairly good place to learn about Calvinism.

By training John Calvin was not a theologian, but a lawyer. Calvinism starts off with Calvin’s reworking of Aquinas’ theory of the Cross. The major difference is what the work of Christ accomplished, how this was accomplished, and the effects of sin.

Calvin spiritualized everything into a court-room type arena and defined the “problem of sin” to be one centered in divine justice. Calvin rejected Aquinas’ view of justice, replacing it with a retributive justice that had legal demands.

So the cross becomes the point where men are redeemed by legal requirements being met to satisfy the demands of divine justice. Divine justice being satisfied God is free to forgive the men for whom this debt was paid.

God took man's punishment upon Himself by the Father (God) punishing His Son (God) on the Cross to satisfy the demands of divine justice by paying the debt of sin for individual men. This act on the cross was God's act of forgiving man (the philosophy is that God has to receive payment of a debt in order to forgive the debt, but in actuality the act constitutes forgiveness).

Calvinism

Here - on the Baptist Board - Calvinism is a neo-Calvinistic theology (it is not traditional Calvinism but rather an expression in five points – T.U.L.I.P.). The Canons of Dort are generally accepted however non-Baptist doctrines are passed over and the remainder is held by Calvinists to varying degrees.

Men are totally depraved and there is nothing in man that can turn them towards God. This can only be done by God.

If you begin with the Calvinistic presuppositions then every sin must be paid prior to the sinner being forgiven those sins (or as a means of forgiveness itself).

Therefore Christ had to have died only for those who would be saved, otherwise He would have paid the debt for people who would ultimately still be condemned and God would be unjust.

Election is individual.

God chose who would be saved either from fallen man or prior to the fall of man (this is debatable among Calvinists). God’s choosing was not by chance, but by God’s plan and design which is beyond our knowledge. But God did not choose man on any condition present within that man.
 

LaGrange

Active Member
Here's something to start:

A little about me

I am a Christian and a Baptist. I studied theology, graduated from a Baptist university and a Baptist seminary. I am ordained and a licensed preacher (I am licensed by a Baptist church), but I have never pastored a church.

I was a Calvinist for years. I taught Calvinism (when teaching theology), and to be honest I am sure Calvinism influenced by preaching and teaching. I abandoned Calvinism for its’ presuppositions as they were, in my view, too foundational to Calvinistic doctrine to be assumed rather than present in Scripture. Also, I found the assumptions to be inadequately defended when challenged by several scholars.


Calvinistic assumptions

I am assuming by Thomist you are speaking of not only philosophy but also his view of Christ’s work and redemption. If so, you are in a fairly good place to learn about Calvinism.

By training John Calvin was not a theologian, but a lawyer. Calvinism starts off with Calvin’s reworking of Aquinas’ theory of the Cross. The major difference is what the work of Christ accomplished, how this was accomplished, and the effects of sin.

Calvin spiritualized everything into a court-room type arena and defined the “problem of sin” to be one centered in divine justice. Calvin rejected Aquinas’ view of justice, replacing it with a retributive justice that had legal demands.

So the cross becomes the point where men are redeemed by legal requirements being met to satisfy the demands of divine justice. Divine justice being satisfied God is free to forgive the men for whom this debt was paid.

God took man's punishment upon Himself by the Father (God) punishing His Son (God) on the Cross to satisfy the demands of divine justice by paying the debt of sin for individual men. This act on the cross was God's act of forgiving man (the philosophy is that God has to receive payment of a debt in order to forgive the debt, but in actuality the act constitutes forgiveness).

Calvinism

Here - on the Baptist Board - Calvinism is a neo-Calvinistic theology (it is not traditional Calvinism but rather an expression in five points – T.U.L.I.P.). The Canons of Dort are generally accepted however non-Baptist doctrines are passed over and the remainder is held by Calvinists to varying degrees.

Men are totally depraved and there is nothing in man that can turn them towards God. This can only be done by God.

If you begin with the Calvinistic presuppositions then every sin must be paid prior to the sinner being forgiven those sins (or as a means of forgiveness itself).

Therefore Christ had to have died only for those who would be saved, otherwise He would have paid the debt for people who would ultimately still be condemned and God would be unjust.

Election is individual.

God chose who would be saved either from fallen man or prior to the fall of man (this is debatable among Calvinists). God’s choosing was not by chance, but by God’s plan and design which is beyond our knowledge. But God did not choose man on any condition present within that man.

Thank you Jon C! You know your stuff! I’m have no degrees so you are way ahead of me. I’m what we would call a layperson who happens to like thinking about theology. I take it you follow the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith? I’ve studied some of the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith and listened to some of the John Gerstner Lectures. Took many notes! They look similar in many parts. I’ll ask my first question in the morning. Thanks again!
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Thank you Jon C! You know your stuff! I’m have no degrees so you are way ahead of me. I’m what we would call a layperson who happens to like thinking about theology. I take it you follow the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith? I’ve studied some of the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith and listened to some of the John Gerstner Lectures. Took many notes! They look similar in many parts. I’ll ask my first question in the morning. Thanks again!
You have of course St. Paul to study directly from the scriptures.
Also since your Catholic, read up on one of the oldest and best Catholic Theologians, St. Augustine

About 412, Augustine became the first Christian to understand predestination as a divine unilateral pre-determination of individuals' eternal destinies independently of human choice, although his prior Manichaean sect did teach this concept.[158][159][160][161] Some Protestant theologians, such as Justo L. González[162] and Bengt Hägglund,[25] interpret Augustine's teaching that grace is irresistible, results in conversion, and leads to perseverance.

Recall Jesus said the sheep must be saved, here Christ says about these other sheep he has, who have not yet heard will hear and then believe, one flock, one shepherd.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thank you Jon C! You know your stuff! I’m have no degrees so you are way ahead of me. I’m what we would call a layperson who happens to like thinking about theology. I take it you follow the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith? I’ve studied some of the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith and listened to some of the John Gerstner Lectures. Took many notes! They look similar in many parts. I’ll ask my first question in the morning. Thanks again!
Look at the 1644 Confession, as that seems to be even more "Baptist", and go to sites such as 1689 Federalism...
Here is some "light reading"
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/boettner/predestination_p.pdf
 
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