Featured Calvinism - a "house of cards'

You must think folks are stupid, we are not discussing Romans 9:22, we are discussing 2 Peter 3:9, which you say is speaking of the elect.

It is downright foolish to believe God would need to be longsuffering toward the elect in 2 Peter 3:9 as he could instantly regenerate them any time he decides and they would immediately become willing to repent.

If you believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, I will give you a good deal. :thumbs:

 

You still do not get it Winman......
God is long suffering....to usward....on our behalf...He is not WILLING that Any perish.....{some of the elect have not been born or saved yet} so God does not destroy the ungodly.....both grow together until the harvest....then the judgement......read the whole chapter

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

opps...you missed that ...I will pause now to give you time to clean the egg off your face:laugh: See when you read the whole chapter:laugh::thumbs:

 

Again, you must think people are stupid. There is absolutely no reason God should ever have to wait and be patient for folks to be saved if Calvinism is true. He could make sure all the elect are born today if he wanted.

I cannot believe how seemingly intelligent people can cling to such foolishness.

You have to throw your brain in the trash to believe Calvinism, it is really that ridiculous.

 

Winman

Actually no...it is already set and fixed from eternity past:thumbs::thumbs:

 

BobRyan

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Your inability to welcome truth is understandable.You will not face the actual text....so why would anyone expect you to deal honestly with this.

 

found this in a commentary;

 

Hey guys, sorry to interrupt, just wanted to point out that just because God can do something( instantly save everyone or just the elect) this doesn't mean that he will. He can "freely" choose not to.

 

Actually...He cannot. He deals in Covenant terms...Christ is the Surety.:thumbsup:

 

My apologies I was speaking in hypothetical terms

 

It is still ridiculous to argue that God must be longsuffering toward his elect if Calvinism is true. God could regenerate these persons any time he chooses and they would instantly be perfectly willing to repent.

It doesn't matter if you post explanations from the "great" theologians of Reformed theology, it is a ridiculous and foolish explanation for this verse.

You must desire to believe this explanation, because it goes against all common sense and rational thought.

 

peter quotes from paul in romans 9...you say it is ridiculous....you lack understanding...it cannot be clearer.Do not post anymore until you can read it correctly.

 

JE,

Remember...God does not have to learn ,or change anything.
:thumbsup:His "plan A" is all that is ever needed.:wavey:

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

 

Oh, I am perfectly aware that the scriptures speak of God being longsuffering, but it makes absolutely no sense if Calvinism is true. If Calvinism is true, God has no need to suffer because he can regenerate any person any time he chooses with irresistible grace and they will immediately become perfectly willing to repent.

Now you know that, a child could easily discern how foolish this is. I would have seen this when I was ten years old easily.

Now, in the Arminian or non Calvinist view it makes perfect sense for God to be longsuffering, because in our view God never compels any person to repent. Yes, he earnestly desires all people to repent, he sends out his prophets and messengers calling men to repentance over and over again, but God never forces any man to repent against his will. So it makes perfect sense for God to be longsuffering in the non Calvinist view.

Any thoughtful person reading the scriptures can easily see it supports the non Calvinist view, but is nonsensical in the Reformed/Calvinist view.

 

here it is again;

 

You need to hang it up Iconoclast, you cannot win this argument, because rational thought and common sense is not on your side. The Reformed view here is irrational and illogical to say the least. If Calvinism is true, God would never need to be longsuffering with his elect as you claim in 2 Peter 3:9.

And what do you do? You post other scripture that is not speaking of saved persons. Those people before Noah never repented and God destroyed them. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah never repented and God destroyed them. This is not speaking of "the elect".

But you claim God is longsuffering toward "us-ward" meaning the elect only in 2 Peter 3:9. This explanation is nonsensical because if Calvinism is true God could regenerate them any time he chooses and they would instantly be perfectly willing to repent.

Actually, it does not make sense that God would have had to be longsuffering for the people in Noah's day, or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah either. If God sincerely desired that they repent, he could have regenerated them also.

No, you have to throw your common sense in the waste basket to believe Calvinism, it is irrational and illogical.

 

Brother winman, read the biblical account of Hosea and Gomer, a picture of Christ and His bride. Gomer belonged to Hosea via marriage, yet played the harlot. When the time came, he went and bought her back, redeemed her. Same with God. He sent Jesus to redeem us, to buy us back. He did not give Jesus to those who would not believe, but to those who would believe through God's, and not man's work. Hosea was longsuffering with his bride until the time he bought her, redeemed her back to himself. Christ paid the bill for what we owed. God then, in His time and not ours, does the work to draw us into His sheepfold.

 

That makes perfect sense in the non Calvinist view Willis. You know that, or at least you used to know that. It makes absolutely no sense in the Calvinist view.

There is no need for God to suffer waiting for the elect to repent if Calvinism is true, God could regenerate them immediately, and they would instantly repent.

Two years ago you would have believed the Calvinist view pure foolishness, but now you are buying this baloney. Wow. It is like a switch in your brain has been flipped.

 

Perhaps long-suffering is not as some might think.

When the Scriptures express that God is long suffering, often folks want to put that as to individuals and more specifically apply it to salvation.

But most of the time long-suffering is toward a body of people. Pre-flood, God was long-suffering the sins of the humankind. During the exodus, God was long-suffering the sins of the Jews. Then the time of the kings, prophets, ... Jesus cried over Jerusalem expressing his long-suffering. Even now the time of the second coming is delayed for God is long-suffering toward all humankind.

There is another aspect of this as it relates to salvation of individuals.

Winman is correct when challenging the Calvinist that God could save whom He desires when He desires.

And God does. (Contrary to Winman's actual purpose in suggesting the problem with Calvinistic thinking)

Why then does it seem that God is long-suffering (for instance Paul) before conversion?

The answer is found in the question: For whom is the experience of Salvation for - God or man?

Of course the Non-cal desires that all men have equal opportunity salvation. But everyone knows that God is not an equal opportunity employer.

God states: I will have mercy and I will have compassion upon whom I will have mercy and compassion.

Humankind has no right to hold God accountable for the "whom" of God.

Is God long-suffering - certainly toward ALL humankind

Is He long-suffering when it comes to salvation? NO!

He appoints the "whom" and the Scriptures state it is none of our business to question why God moves upon the "whom."