Calvinism and its glaring oversights .

[Barry Johnson]

 

[atpollard]

For a video to open with a promise that it is not an attack on Calvinism, but 35 statements of what the Bible actually teaches that “just happen” to contradict TULIP, and then dedicate the first 60% of the video to an attack on Calvinists before it states even 1 of the 35 truths found in scripture ... rings of dishonesty.

Clearly the presenter is more interested in his axe to grind against Calvinists than presenting any Biblical Truth and letting it speak for itself. All I can say is ... “at least I only wasted 12 minutes”.

 

[atpollard]

So let us address his FIRST OBSERVATION:

“Scripture is from God and God cannot lie.”


Well, there you have it. The first TULIP KILLER observation. After all, everyone knows that the T in TULIP stands for “God is a (T)otal liar” ... right? Or was that “Scripture is (T)otally made up by men?

Calvinists agree completely with the First point. That is why we claim ...

[John 6:44]

• "No one can come to Me” (Total inability)
  
  
• “unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (Unconditional Election & Irresistible Grace)
  
  
• “and I will raise him up on the last day.” (Perseverance of the Saints)

 

[SavedByGrace]

So let us address his FIRST OBSERVATION:

“Scripture is from God and God cannot lie.”


Well, there you have it. The first TULIP KILLER observation. After all, everyone knows that the T in TULIP stands for “God is a (T)otal liar” ... right? Or was that “Scripture is (T)otally made up by men?

Calvinists agree completely with the First point. That is why we claim ...

[John 6:44]

• "No one can come to Me” (Total inability)
  
  
• “unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (Unconditional Election & Irresistible Grace)
  
  
• “and I will raise him up on the last day.” (Perseverance of the Saints)

Abuse of John 6.44!

 

[atpollard]

Abuse of John 6.44!

So “no one can come to me” does not really mean that “no one can come to me”; it really means “everyone has the free will innate ability to come to me” ... is that what you are claiming?

Or is it that “unless the Father who sent me draws him” does not really mean “unless the Father who sent me draws him”; it really means “everyone can choose to come or not to come based on the power of human free will and innate nature” ... is that what you are claiming?

Or is it that “and I will raise him up on the last day” does not really mean “and I will raise him up on the last day.”; it really means “Jesus will raise some on the last day; those that are good enough to save themselves” ... is that what you are claiming?

I just wonder why it is that Calvinists are always accused of rejecting scripture when we present clear verses and get this sort of reaction. Which literal words have I “abused” by believing that God says what He meant and meant what He said.

 

[canadyjd]

So “no one can come to me” does not really mean that “no one can come to me”; it really means “everyone has the free will innate ability to come to me” ... is that what you are claiming?

Or is it that “unless the Father who sent me draws him” does not really mean “unless the Father who sent me draws him”; it really means “everyone can choose to come or not to come based on the power of human free will and innate nature” ... is that what you are claiming?

Or is it that “and I will raise him up on the last day” does not really mean “and I will raise him up on the last day.”; it really means “Jesus will raise some on the last day; those that are good enough to save themselves” ... is that what you are claiming?

I just wonder why it is that Calvinists are always accused of rejecting scripture when we present clear verses and get this sort of reaction. Which literal words have I “abused” by believing that God says what He meant and meant what He said.

It is much easier for some to simply dismiss scripture passages as being “abused” and claim it doesn’t really say what it says rather than address the text and show in context why the meaning is different than presented.

Peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

Anyone who uses Kevin Thompson as a source has no credibility at all.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is much easier for some to simply dismiss scripture passages as being “abused” and claim it doesn’t really say what it says rather than address the text and show in context why the meaning is different than presented.

Peace to you

Yeah like you reformed dismiss and twist John 3.16 for the universality of Jesus' death. And Luke 22 which says that Jesus died for the sins of Judas. Because the Bible disagrees with your theology these passages are dismissed as irrelevant

 

[canadyjd]

Yeah like you reformed dismiss and twist John 3.16 for the universality of Jesus' death. And Luke 22 which says that Jesus died for the sins of Judas. Because the Bible disagrees with your theology these passages are dismissed as irrelevant

And so.... you speak and prove my point.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

And so.... you speak and prove my point.

peace to you

can't really respond, can you?

 

[canadyjd]

can't really respond, can you?

Of course I can.

But when I consider all the time and effort others have spent, day after day year after year, to post many passages of scripture with detailed explanations, only to have that effort dismissed with “your twisting scripture”... bla bla bla.... I decided not to waste my time.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Of course I can.

But when I consider all the time and effort others have spent, day after day year after year, to post many passages of scripture with detailed explanations, only to have that effort dismissed with “your twisting scripture”... bla bla bla.... I decided not to waste my time.

peace to you

No Reformed or Calvinists has EVER been able to disprove John 3:16 as Jesus dying for the entire human race, and offering salvation to ALL of this race! The passage of John 3:16, in its context from verse one, is about being "born again", and YET, even though the main "Calvinist", John Calvin, himself says that this means that "whosoever" means "everyone without exception"; and almost every Greek lexical authority says that in this passage, "kosmos", means "entire human race"; again, this is simply dismissed because of YOUR theological BIAS! This has got NOTHING to do with what the Bible says!

Likewise, I have shown from Luke 22:19-22, that Jesus gave the bread and wine to ALL the Disciples, INCLUDING Judas, which again is admitted to buy two Reformed commentators, Matthew Henry and John Gill, both "Five Point Calvinists", and Jesus very clearly says that the cup represents His blood, shed for their sins. Again, because of theological BIAS, you and the others who hold to your "theology", simply dismiss what the Word of God says! Why? because it shows that what you believe to be UNBIBLICAL! Instead of admitting that you have this very wrong, you guys keep on arguing for the sake of it, being deluded that your position is more right than the very Word of God!

So, please don't try to say that I dismiss anything that the Bible says! DEAL with these two passages, and show where I have it wrong!

 

[canadyjd]

No Reformed or Calvinists has EVER been able to disprove John 3:16 as Jesus dying for the entire human race, and offering salvation to ALL of this race! The passage of John 3:16,......
So, please don't try to say that I dismiss anything that the Bible says! DEAL with these two passages, and show where I have it wrong!

OK, let’s start with John 3:16.

As we discussed in another thread, John 3:8 lays the foundation for being “born again” = “salvation”. The wind/Spirit blows where He wills, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. This passage elaborates John 1, which states the “children of God” are born by the will of God.

So, whatever else John 3:16 means it cannot vary from the foundation already laid that salvation is completed by the will of God and that God Holy Spirit choses who will be saved.

 

[canadyjd]

Concerning your statement about Christ dying for all mankind and salvation is therefore offered to all mankind, John 3:16 doesn’t say that.

It does says God “so loved the world”... God does love all of His creation, but the “dying” and the “salvation” are for the “whosoever believes”.

The phrase “whosoever believes” places limits not only on who Christ died for but who the offer of salvation goes to.

Although many will hear and reject the gospel of Jesus, there is is no reason to believe the gospel has been heard by every human being that has ever lived. Therefore, we cannot say the offer of salvation has gone to the entire human race.

Do you have any evidence that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been heard by every person that has ever lived since the days of Jesus?

Then you cannot say the offer of salvation has gone to all of mankind.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

Concerning your statement about Christ dying for all mankind and salvation is therefore offered to all mankind, John 3:16 doesn’t say that.

It does says God “so loved the world”... God does love all of His creation, but the “dying” and the “salvation” are for the “whosoever believes”.

The phrase “whosoever believes” places limits not only on who Christ died for but who the offer of salvation goes to.

Although many will hear and reject the gospel of Jesus, there is is no reason to believe the gospel has been heard by every human being that has ever lived. Therefore, we cannot say the offer of salvation has gone to the entire human race.

Do you have any evidence that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been heard by every person that has ever lived since the days of Jesus?

Then you cannot say the offer of salvation has gone to all of mankind.

peace to you

On your last paragraph. Luke 23 says that Jesus told Judas that He was going to the cross to die for his sins. Was Jesus mistaken?

 

[SavedByGrace]

OK, let’s start with John 3:16.

As we discussed in another thread, John 3:8 lays the foundation for being “born again” = “salvation”. The wind/Spirit blows where He wills, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. This passage elaborates John 1, which states the “children of God” are born by the will of God.

So, whatever else John 3:16 means it cannot vary from the foundation already laid that salvation is completed by the will of God and that God Holy Spirit choses who will be saved.

There is no doubt to the honest mind, that the use of “kosmos” here can only mean “the whole human race”. To make it mean something less, is a distortion of the facts!

In our immediate context, “kosmos” is used four times, once in verse 16, and three times in verse 17. If we were to limit its use in verse 16, to refer only to the “elect”, then we must carry on this use in the following verse also. Where we read:

“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved”

Let is substitute the word “world” in each of these cases with “elect”, and see how it reads.

“For God did not send His Son into the elect to condemn the elect, but that the elect through Him might be saved”

If, as it is argued by some, that Christ only came to save the “elect”, then why would any mention ever be made about Him coming to “condemn”, or “judge” the “elect”? These words have no meaning at all, if they are meant to be for the “elect” only. There would not be any reference made to any judgement or condemnation of the “elect”, as this is something that is not at all even a possibility.

 

[Dave G]

There is no doubt to the honest mind, that the use of “kosmos” here can only mean “the whole human race”.

I have an honest mind, and I can tell you that in many places,
I doubt the use of "world" as meaning "every man, woman and child that ever lived";

But this understanding of it came to me slowly the more I studied the Scriptures.
For example, "world" cannot mean "the whole human race" here:

" And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." ( 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 ).

It must mean the "world" of believers out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ), or it would result in a glaring oversight...
Not only would it mean that God has reconciled the whole human race to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, but that He will cast most of the human race into Hell.

For what trespass?
It says that their trespasses were not imputed to them, when Revelation 20:13 clearly states that the dead will be judged according to their works.

So, if "world" in the passage above means what you say it does in John 3:16, then we have a rather unloving God who ends up casting most of the ones that He loves into eternal torment.
God torments the ones that He loves?
That's not love, SBG...

That's hatred, just as Matthew 25:41 says.

 

[Dave G]

If, as it is argued by some, that Christ only came to save the “elect”, then why would any mention ever be made about Him coming to “condemn”, or “judge” the “elect”?

To me, you're not picking up on the way "world" is being used in the differing passages and by context...
But that's my own private opinion and not to be taken with any authority.

From my perspective, in some passages "world" means "the whole human race outside of Christ" ( see John 15:18, 1 John 3:13 ).
In some it means, " many of the people in Israel / the immediate area" ( see John 12:19 ).
In some it means the "world of believers" ( see 2 Corinthians 5:19, "us", as well as John 3:16, 1 John 2:2 ).
In some places it means " mankind outside of Christ and its sinful ways" ( see Romans 12:2, John 16:33, James 1:27, James 4:4, 1 John 2:15, 1 John 3:1 ).



So, if you have trouble understanding what "world" means, my best advice is to keep studying.
There are no "glaring oversights" except in our own minds as believers, which are being transformed by His words...

A transformation that takes both time and diligent study.
May God bless you greatly as you do so, my friend.

 

[canadyjd]

There is no doubt to the honest mind, that the use of “kosmos” here can only mean “the whole human race”.....
In our immediate context, “kosmos” is used four times, once in verse 16, and three times in verse 17. If we were to limit its use in verse 16,...
“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved”.......

And, should you keep reading to see the context more fully...

V. 19 “This is the judgement, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil”.

So, “world” here must mean “all mankind”, therefore all mankind rejected Jesus because they were evil. More evidence of this truth is found in V. 20

V.20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light , and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed”

But wait, what about those that are “born again” by the will of God (John 1) and by the will of Holy Spirit? (John 3:8) We see in the next verse...

V. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God”

So the world (all mankind) rejected Jesus (The Light) and did works of evil. But there are some that do “practice truth” (good deeds compared to evil deeds) These come to Jesus for the purpose of revealing to the world that their deeds are actually a work (wrought) by God.

All is consistent with the “children of God” are born by the will of God (John 1) and by will of Holy Spirit (John 3:8) to “practice truth” John 3:21) to show the “world” the truth that it is all a work of God. (John 3:21)

Isn’t it beautiful how the doctrines of grace demonstrate perfect harmony in scripture?

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

And, should you keep reading to see the context more fully...

V. 19 “This is the judgement, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil”.

So, “world” here must mean “all mankind”, therefore all mankind rejected Jesus because they were evil. More evidence of this truth is found in V. 20

V.20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light , and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed”

But wait, what about those that are “born again” by the will of God (John 1) and by the will of Holy Spirit? (John 3:8) We see in the next verse...

V. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God”

So the world (all mankind) rejected Jesus (The Light) and did works of evil. But there are some that do “practice truth” (good deeds compared to evil deeds) These come to Jesus for the purpose of revealing to the world that their deeds are actually a work (wrought) by God.

All is consistent with the “children of God” are born by the will of God (John 1) and by will of Holy Spirit (John 3:8) to “practice truth” John 3:21) to show the “world” the truth that it is all a work of God. (John 3:21)

Isn’t it beautiful how the doctrines of grace demonstrate perfect harmony in scripture?

peace to you

Remember the words of the Lord Jesus WHOSOEVER, and I can wholeheartedly agree with John Calvin here that Jesus means "everyone without exception". Say Amen!