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Calvinism and Open Theism are strange bedfellows?

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DaChaser1

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I took one scripture, which is true and cannot be broken, to refute one claim of yours. Now you say this does not offset "all the other didactic texts. But you did not reference any of them. Thus a generalization without specific support in scripture.

Yes, if we are willing to accept nonsense, we can stick with the advocacy of mystery to explain a logical impossibility. But since scripture answers the mystery, there is no need to accept nonsense. You argument is like advocating that God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars. You cannot prove from scripture that he did not, and God is certainly able to do whatever He chooses to do. But if we stick with what scripture actually says, we can agree on the truth.

Lets just take one more example. In the book of Jonah, God tells Jonah to proclaim "in forty days Nineveh will be overturned." Now according to you God knew He would not overturn Nineveh, He was just telling them something He was able to do. But Satan is the father of lies, so to ascribe this behavior to God demeans God.

I could go on with other didactic texts which teach your view is mistaken. OTOH, I have addressed every single passage cited to support your view. Now of course, I am not allowed to repeat those arguments because they have been ruled "unorthodox." However, I do not believe we can find in the doctrinal statements of Baptists that everything is predestined, and therefore the orthodox view is limited open theism.

problem is that you are trying to reason your way tot he answer, need to accept what God has already declared in His word!

Also, once you lose concept of there really be free will in the strictest sense for man, that will help you also to see the truth!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
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No, I am sticking with what God declared in His word. I think I see the truth just fine. God sets before us a choice of life or death, not a "choice of death only for some" and "life only for others" which is the Calvinist rewrite. Calvinism tried to reason its way rather than accepting what scripture says.

Everything is not predestined and God is not the author of sin. Pretty straight-forward.

God is sovereign, but sovereign is not code for everything is predestined. Pretty straight-forward.
 

glfredrick

New Member
No, I am sticking with what God declared in His word. I think I see the truth just fine. God sets before us a choice of life or death, not a "choice of death only for some" and "life only for others" which is the Calvinist rewrite. Calvinism tried to reason its way rather than accepting what scripture says.

Everything is not predestined and God is not the author of sin. Pretty straight-forward.

God is sovereign, but sovereign is not code for everything is predestined. Pretty straight-forward.

Van, let's examine the issue behind God, Jonah, and Nineveh a bit more. Whom INITIATED the issue? GOD. Whom called out a prophet to go to a Gentile land with a warning? GOD. Who ran from that call? Jonah. Who insured that His effectual call was in fact made? GOD. Who used a reluctant prophet who wished with every fiber of his will that he did not have to do what God willed? GOD. Who had in mind to speak His will to Nineveh long before anything else? GOD.

So, it would indeed appear that God did in fact predestine Nineveh to repentance, in that He caused precisely that to happen. Now, we might toss in the choice that the people of Nineveh had in the matter, but even in that we might find that God had already preempted them.. Jonah's appearance was radically different from most men after his encounter in the belly of the great fish and after being under the sea for 3 days (the sign Christ later offered as a type that explained His time in the tomb -- BEFORE the fact of His actually being laid there), which suggests that even this was part of God's plan for Nineveh.

Oh, and I'm still waiting on an answer to my earlier post. :wavey:
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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VAN STATES "Everything is not predestined and God is not the author of sin. Pretty straight-forward."

"God is sovereign, but sovereign is not code for everything is predestined. Pretty straight-forward."


OK...?? Where did you get the idea that Salvation By Grace Theology people believe that God is the author of Sin & Everything is Predestined????

Do I have to tell you again that that isnt so or do you get some type of sick satisfaction in making these erroneous claims?

To use your own words to address this ...... HORSE FEATHERS :BangHead:


Oh, & I just found this in archives:

And if you study the scriptures very carefully you will begin to notice something that is consistent and that is that Predestination is always about people and not about events. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren." This is a huge point and please do not miss it. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestines all whom He foreknew. Some say that God predestined everything we do, even the sin that we commit. Now, that would make us mindless pawns and would make God the author of sin. So here is what I see in studying scripture telling us bottom line "Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect."
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I took one scripture, which is true and cannot be broken, to refute one claim of yours. Now you say this does not offset "all the other didactic texts. But you did not reference any of them. Thus a generalization without specific support in scripture.
They've been quoted ad nauseum and we both know you are aware of them, you just interpret them to mean that "he knows all that is possible to know" and then proceed to decide what is possible to know.

Yes, if we are willing to accept nonsense, we can stick with the advocacy of mystery to explain a logical impossibility.
Is it 'logically' possible under your finite, deterministic linear worldview for a divine being to exist without a beginning? Is it logically for him to be 3 and 1? By what standard to deem something a 'logical impossibility?' Your logical finite reasoning?

Sorry, but I'll stick with revelation and not pretend to be able to define every implication of all that is revealed with regard to an infinite omniscient God.


But since scripture answers the mystery, there is no need to accept nonsense. You argument is like advocating that God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars. You cannot prove from scripture that he did not, and God is certainly able to do whatever He chooses to do. But if we stick with what scripture actually says, we can agree on the truth.
huh? I'm not the one making an assertion. You are. You are claiming its a logical impossibly for God to have exhaustive knowledge and for men to remain free. I believe that when Peter denied Christ 3 times he did it freely. Why don't you? Because its a logically impossibility? Based on what authority?

I have addressed every single passage cited to support your view. Now of course, I am not allowed to repeat those arguments because they have been ruled "unorthodox."
And not Baptist... Sorry, but if you don't like the rules you can start a Open Theist Forum and ban those of us who believe God is creative and powerful enough to know all things while still creating free moral creatures.
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
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They've been quoted ad nauseum and we both know you are aware of them, just just interpret them to mean that "he knows all that is possible to know" and then proceed to decide what is possible to know.

Is it 'logically' possible under your finite, deterministic linear worldview for a divine being to exist without a beginning? Is it logically for him to be 3 and 1? By what standard to deem something a 'logical impossibility?' Your logical finite reasoning?

Sorry, but I'll stick with revelation and not pretend to be able to define every implication of all that is revealed with regard to an infinite omniscient God.


huh? I'm not the one making an assertion. You are. You are claiming its a logical impossibly for God to have exhaustive knowledge and for men to remain free. I believe that when Peter denied Christ 3 times he did it freely. Why don't you? Because its a logically impossibility? Based on what authority?


And not Baptist... Sorry, but if you don't like the rules you can start a Open Theist Forum and ban those of us who believe God is creative and powerful enough to know all things while still creating free moral creatures.

BRAVO :applause::thumbs:
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reply to deflection

Van, let's examine the issue behind God, Jonah, and Nineveh a bit more. Whom INITIATED the issue? GOD. Whom called out a prophet to go to a Gentile land with a warning? GOD. Who ran from that call? Jonah. Who insured that His effectual call was in fact made? GOD. Who used a reluctant prophet who wished with every fiber of his will that he did not have to do what God willed? GOD. Who had in mind to speak His will to Nineveh long before anything else? GOD.

So, it would indeed appear that God did in fact predestine Nineveh to repentance, in that He caused precisely that to happen. Now, we might toss in the choice that the people of Nineveh had in the matter, but even in that we might find that God had already preempted them.. Jonah's appearance was radically different from most men after his encounter in the belly of the great fish and after being under the sea for 3 days (the sign Christ later offered as a type that explained His time in the tomb -- BEFORE the fact of His actually being laid there), which suggests that even this was part of God's plan for Nineveh.

Oh, and I'm still waiting on an answer to my earlier post. :wavey:

The issue is God told Jonah to say in forty days Nineveh will be overturned. If God knew He would not overturn it, why did He say He would? You have no answer to you change the subject. Shuck and jive folks, shuck and jive.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reply to Skandelon;

They've been quoted ad nauseum and we both know you are aware of them, you just interpret them to mean that "he knows all that is possible to know" and then proceed to decide what is possible to know.

Is it 'logically' possible under your finite, deterministic linear worldview for a divine being to exist without a beginning? Is it logically for him to be 3 and 1? By what standard to deem something a 'logical impossibility?' Your logical finite reasoning?

Sorry, but I'll stick with revelation and not pretend to be able to define every implication of all that is revealed with regard to an infinite omniscient God.


huh? I'm not the one making an assertion. You are. You are claiming its a logical impossibly for God to have exhaustive knowledge and for men to remain free. I believe that when Peter denied Christ 3 times he did it freely. Why don't you? Because its a logically impossibility? Based on what authority?


And not Baptist... Sorry, but if you don't like the rules you can start a Open Theist Forum and ban those of us who believe God is creative and powerful enough to know all things while still creating free moral creatures.

Real teachers of God's word cite the scriptures they teach from. False teachers hide their doctrines in generalities.

I am not the one interpreting scripture, I cite specific verses, like God saying now I know. You are the one who time and time again says scripture does not mean what it says.

I have a finite mind, but you are in the same box. For you to claim you have secret knowledge from outside the box is silly.

Next we have the paradox of the trinity thrown out as supporting the validity of other paradoxes. Fiddlesticks.

Yes, when someone says God predestines everything but is not the author of sin, I say that is a logical impossibility. Or for another example say you claim to be spiritually in Christ and not spiritually in Christ at the same time. Fiddlesticks.

You have no ability to comprehend God beyond what your finite mind comprehends.

No, you do not stick with revelation, that is what I do. You say God's revelation does not mean what it says. God says now I know, and you say He did not mean what He said.

All Arminians are open theists to a limited degree, as are most Calvinists. Strange bedfellows.
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Can prayer alter the future? God had said in forty days Nineveh will be overturned, yet Nineveh was not overturned. Either God said He was going to do something He knew He was not going to do, or He relented and did not bring calmity because the people of Nineveh repented and prayed.

I believe being an orthodox Baptist, that God sometimes alters the future in response to the prayers of His loved ones, just like He did in the book of Jonah.
 

glfredrick

New Member
The issue is God told Jonah to say in forty days Nineveh will be overturned. If God knew He would not overturn it, why did He say He would? You have no answer to you change the subject. Shuck and jive folks, shuck and jive.

Was God not the author, even of the statement to Jonah?

How you constantly mistake God as the subject of the sentence and yet claim that you "study" the Scriptures is beyond me.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Can prayer alter the future? God had said in forty days Nineveh will be overturned, yet Nineveh was not overturned. Either God said He was going to do something He knew He was not going to do, or He relented and did not bring calmity because the people of Nineveh repented and prayed.

I believe being an orthodox Baptist, that God sometimes alters the future in response to the prayers of His loved ones, just like He did in the book of Jonah.
When God called to Adam, did He know where Adam was?

Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?


God knows everything.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi Amy G, it does not matter how many times you say something, unless it is true, saying it does not make it true.

And why did you offer another verse to discuss, rather than the ones that I believe demonstrate my position? In your passage, God may have been asking rhetorical questions, where are you and who gave you the fruit? Scripture does not say whether God knew the answers to these questions.

However, when God told Jonah to say, In forty days Nineveh will be overturned, if He knew He would not overturn it, then that is inconsistent with God's character. Do you have an answer to my question?

When God said, now I know, that shows God did not know beforehand. So if scripture is true and cannot be broken, your view is unbiblical.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Van said:
The issue is God told Jonah to say in forty days Nineveh will be overturned. If God knew He would not overturn it, why did He say He would? You have no answer to you change the subject. Shuck and jive folks, shuck and jive.

Was God not the author, even of the statement to Jonah?
Yes, that is my point, God told Jonah what to say.

How you constantly mistake God as the subject of the sentence and yet claim that you "study" the Scriptures is beyond me.
I made no mistake. Here is yet another effort to change the subject from the topic of the thread to my behavior. Shuck and jive, folks, shuck and jive.

Look at the number here who are using every trick in the book to avoid the truth of scripture. God is not the author of sin, therefore God does not predestine everything. Pretty simple, really. And if God does not predestine everything, then open theism to a limited degree is biblical. Pretty simple really.
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Look at the number here who are using every trick in the book to avoid the truth of scripture. God is not the author of sin, therefore God does not predestine everything. Pretty simple, really. And if God does not predestine everything, then open theism to a limited degree is biblical. Pretty simple really.

open theism is a heresy.....24/7 pretty simple really
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
When God called to Adam, did He know where Adam was?

Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?


God knows everything.

:thumbsup::thumbs::applause:...correct stand against heresy:thumbsup:
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
All Arminians and most Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree. Iconoclast disparages, but never states his position. He quotes ambiguity and then runs away from it. He calls scripture heresy and then calls for Amy G to stand against scripture.

If God predestines everything, God is the author of Sin. Therefore God does not predestine everything. Pretty simple really.
 

glfredrick

New Member
All Arminians and most Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree. Iconoclast disparages, but never states his position. He quotes ambiguity and then runs away from it. He calls scripture heresy and then calls for Amy G to stand against scripture.

If God predestines everything, God is the author of Sin. Therefore God does not predestine everything. Pretty simple really.

Listen Van... You are really quick to take the rest of us to task, yet you have utterly failed to deal with the question I posed to you above.

Why is that? Perhaps you cannot... I've posed similar questions to you before and all you do is rail on about how we are all just attacking you or your new current favorite phrase (which says absolutely nothing) "shuck and jive."

You CLAIM to have the entire soteriological picture worked out and it is VERY SIMPLE (so simple, I suppose a cave man could understand it, right?) and yet you FAIL to present this very simple way of reconciling the Scriptures.

Go ahead -- if you can. But at the end of the day, I am assured that you cannot. It is far easier to stand from afar and pick apart, in a negative sense, those with whom you disagree than to come near and lay out a coherent doctrine. But, here is your chance, Let fly!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Changing the Subject

Listen Van... You are really quick to take the rest of us to task, yet you have utterly failed to deal with the question I posed to you above.

Why is that? Perhaps you cannot... I've posed similar questions to you before and all you do is rail on about how we are all just attacking you or your new current favorite phrase (which says absolutely nothing) "shuck and jive."

You CLAIM to have the entire soteriological picture worked out and it is VERY SIMPLE (so simple, I suppose a cave man could understand it, right?) and yet you FAIL to present this very simple way of reconciling the Scriptures.

Go ahead -- if you can. But at the end of the day, I am assured that you cannot. It is far easier to stand from afar and pick apart, in a negative sense, those with whom you disagree than to come near and lay out a coherent doctrine. But, here is your chance, Let fly!

Yet another Calvinist trying to derail the thread and change the subject to my supposedly bad behavior rather than the topic. That is all they have folks, shuck and jive.

And note their effort to attribute to me their behavior, which is to post disparagement devoid of any scriptural position on the topic of the thread. More shuck and more jive.

And finally note the repeated effort to claim I have not answered a question when they have not said whether God predestines all things. Or if He does, how then is not the author of our predestined sins. Shuck and jive folks, shuck and jive.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
All Arminians and most Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree.

If God predestines everything, God is the author of Sin. Therefore God does not predestine everything. Pretty simple really.

Look at the number here who are using every trick in the book to avoid the truth of scripture. God is not the author of sin, therefore God does not predestine everything. Pretty simple, really. And if God does not predestine everything, then open theism to a limited degree is biblical. Pretty simple really.
 
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Amy.G

New Member
All Arminians and most Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree.
False. Open theism is heresy.

If God predestines everything, God is the author of Sin. Therefore God does not predestine everything. Pretty simple really.
No it's not simple at all. God is very complicated. Even what He has chosen to reveal to us is sometimes very hard to understand, and sometimes impossible to understand.


Look at the number here who are using every trick in the book to avoid the truth of scripture. God is not the author of sin, therefore God does not predestine everything. Pretty simple, really. And if God does not predestine everything, then open theism to a limited degree is biblical. Pretty simple really.
God is sovereign and as such MUST know everything. Just because you don't understand how God can predestine and at the same time allow certain choices to be made by man does not mean God is the author of sin.

We cannot understand all there is to know about God and His ways. To think you can figure out your creator is arrogant and a foolish waste of time.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
 
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