Calvinism and the God of Second Chances

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Wildfire:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gina L:
*sigh*

I'll do to you what I've done to others. Hold on, it's a fun ride.

The quiz. You cannot move on with any unanswered questions. This will be a series of ten.

Question one: We don't choose to be sinners on our way to hell. We're born that way. So...when does our free will begin?

Gina, I'll be happy to let you make up new rules for the thread some other day. If you can show me a single Scripture that actually says the things listed above, we can move on to your questions. But, mind you, not one of those deep-hidden-meaning things. Something as clearly as 1 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that anyone should perish. </font>[/QUOTE]Well. THAT isn't the way it was supposed to work! LOL! Everyone is supposed to listen to ME!

Ok, here's how I view this topic. This is to Wildfire and ANYONE ELSE willing to listen.

You can point out verses that seem to CLEARLY state that man has total free will.

I can point out verses that seem to CLEARLY say the opposite.

We could post "clear" verses to each other until the sky turns polka-dotted, and it won't prove anything.

People have been doing it for years on this thread.

It's pointless.

There are a ZILLION books out there on the topic.

If you truly feel you have the knowledge and authority to settle the debate online in a thread, or even twenty threads, more power to ya, but I have a suggestion. (apart from we all need to get over ourselves if we think we can "win" a debate on this topic)

Here's the suggestion. Quit doing what everyone else has been doing for years. We can all go out and get books written by people with more study and authority on the topic than we have.

What NEEDS to be done is equal treatment of the "clear" verses, and that means you can't ignore the ones that point out lack of free will and I can't ignore the ones that point out free will.

I can't tell you how tired I am of being called a heretic and that I believe in the doctrine of devils and so forth by everyone and their mamma. I'm sure that both sides are.

"Come, let us reason together".
TOGETHER.

I haven't met anyone on here, EVER, apart from one former member who has, sadly, passed on, that was willing to look at ALL of the verses in context, sit down, study, and have real discussions that were sane, left out sarcasm, and left off stating "this is how it is", and instead studied and posted with the person of the opposite opinion, rather than against them.

If you or anyone else can do that, it's worth coming together and studying this. On God's terms. Not with my rules, not with yours.

Anyone game?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wildfire:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andy T.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wildfire:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dustin:
1 Peter 3:9 is written to believers about believers. Wildfire, have you entertained the idea that the ALL in that verse are referring to the elect?

Yes, I have entertained the idea. Then dismissed it. If they're already believers, why is God patiently waiting for them to become believers? And if He's waiting for the nonbelievers to become believers, hasn't He already, according to Master Calvin, predestined them?

Sorry, it just doesn't work. You can't keep flipping back and forth. </font>[/QUOTE]II Peter 3 is in the context of the Second Coming of Christ. Peter is addressing objections by people who say He is not coming again. If you interpet II Peter 3:9 to include all people, then Jesus would never come again, unless you believe at some point every individual on Earth will be saved. When Jesus comes again, there will undoubtedly be unbelievers on Earth. But He's not willing that any should perish, so why would He come again knowing that some are not saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Nothing in 2 Peter 3:9 says He won't come until everyone believes. It merely says He is patient, not willing that anyone should perish.
</font>[/QUOTE] Oh... so instead of just accepting what it says, we must accept an explanation designed to conform to your system, right?

Now, if He has already predestined who is saved, what does he have to be patient about?

Notably "patient" is your word... not God's. In fact, the very context of the verse tells us precisely who is being spoken about. It says "but is longsuffering toward us"... and who was Peter writing to? Believers, not the lost at all.

And if He isn't willing that anyone should perish, why would He elect who does and who doesn't?

If those being addressed were believers then this question is moot.

The verse only makes complete contextual sense if you read it with an understanding that individuals have choices.

You'll have to do better than just say so since the context clearly notes that it is God's promise to "us" that is being discussed... and not the ungodly men of verse 7 who are to be judged.

Choice does not equal works.

"Decision" by any reasonable definition is a "work". "Choice" does not have an effect. "Decision" about a choice is what has an effect.

Given the "choice", the "decision" of unregenerate, natural, carnal men will always be themselves over denial of self unto godly repentance.

God's grace is sufficient, but it applies only to those who believe (Jn 3:16).

Those who believe are only those who have been born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wildfire:


So, you see, you're right. 2 Peter 3:9 means exactly what it says. God is not willing that any man should perish. But (Jn 3:16) only those who believe on the Son will have everlasting life.

Can you point me to the Bible text that says "any man"? You are here lecturing us about staying true to what the text actually says and the literal translation here is "any"... not "anyone" or "any man".

And, yes, there is a meaningful difference if "any" points back to "us" and not to "all of mankind/any man"... which is not to be found in the context of that verse.

These two verses can't contradict each other.

And of course they don't... unless they are stripped of context and misconstrued the way you have attempted.

John 3:16 doesn't say, "for whomsover is elected and regenerated will therefore believe and have eternal life."

Effectively he does since the context for verse 16 is set by the dialogue with Nicodemus found in the verse leading up to it.

The question: Who are the "whosoever"? The answer: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

IOW's, those not born again are blind to the kingdom of God and will not believe.

And 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't say, "God isn't willing that any man should perish except the ones He picks."

You are right. It says that His promise is true and is unwilling that any of "us" should perish.

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by Wildfire:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
Wild, I appreciate your post. You see what you believe to be the errors of Calvinism. The errors you perceive seem to be based on what you have experienced more than what the scriptures have to say on the matter. Allow me to develop this thought.

First let let correct a misonmer. Calvinism is the label given to those who believe in the Reformed view of soteriology (salvation). The Reformed view is often referred to as the doctrines of sovereign grace. To the uninformed they believe that Calvinist's are mind-numbed robots that follow the teachings of John Calvin. I am sure there are some of those folks out there, just as there are people who would blindly follow a free will teacher. Both are wrong and engaged in folly.

The doctrines of sovereign grace can be traced well before Martin Luther and Calvin. Augustine of Hippo (354-432 AD)articulated these doctrines long before the Reformers did. The debate between the doctrines of sovereign grace vs. free will began with a prayer that Augustine wrote. In that prayer he penned these words, "(Lord)Grant what thou commandest and then command what thou wilt." Augustine was stating that the ends and the means proceed from God alone, without the help of man. Pelagius (354-418 AD)was a Celtic monk and a contemporary of Augustine. He read the prayer of Augustine and responded against it. So began a running "back and forth" debate between Augustine and Pelagius. Pelagius was branded a heretic by the church and a modified form of his theology (Semi-Palagianism) was condemned as heresy at the council of Orange in 529. Centuries later Joseph Arminius and John Calvin would face-off on the old Pelagian controversy. The heresy of Arminiansm (which is actually old Pelagianism) was debunked by the church at the Syond of Dordt. It was here at Dordt that the five points of Calvinism were first articulated in one set of documents. I know this is all dry stuff, but it is helpful church history. People get off on a lot of misconceptions and half-truths because they do not know the facts.

The Reformers and those who hold to the doctrines of sovereign grace would never say to you that faith is not necessary for salvation. It certainly is! They would also never tell you that man does not have will. He certainly does! What they would tell you is that mans will is completely fallen because of the sin of Adam. Ephesians 2:1 tells us that, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sin." The word for dead in this passage is the Greek word "nekros." It means to be dead as in a corpse. This verse is speaking about the spiritual state of man. Spiritually man is fallen. Being dead he cannot choose God. Why? Because he is dead. Paul expanded on this thought in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." Who is the natural man? He is the same as the dead man in Ephesians 2:1. Notice that the natural man not only cannot accept (understand) the things of the Spirit of God, he is incapable of doing so. Why? Because he is dead. Dead bodies are incapable of making volitional choices. The free will side has misinterpreted these two passages. Instead of saying that man is spiritually dead, they say that he is merely sick. While man is certainly in state of moral suffering because of sin, he is not completely spiritually dead. He is able to understand the gospel if delivered to him. He need only reach out and accept the gospel in order to be made well. The problem with this view is that it is not biblical. The two verses I quoted clearly teach that man is fallen utterly.

So what does the Calvinist believe about the will of man? He believes that the will of man is subject his nature. If fallen, man will choose sin. Even the good works of a fallen man are but "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). God is the one who must take the action of changing the human heart so it is able to believe. But the question is, does the bible teach that? Does the bible teach that God is one who acts first? Look at the following passage: Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Remember that dead man we referred to? Well that same spiritually dead man is made alive by God (Eph. 2:5) in Christ. Who was the initator? God. But we have to be intellectually honest with our argument. In verse 8 we read, "For by grace you have been saved through faith..." So we do see faith at work. But how can this be? How can faith be instrumental in our salvation if God works on His own? Two answers. The first is the doctrine of regeneration. God initiates the change in us first. He removes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh (Ezk. 36:26). This is called regeneration. Regeneration is not the same thing as salvation, although it is part of the process. Once our heart has been changed we are now able to excercise faith and freely choose Christ. Why? Because God has made our heart able to do so. It is no loner a heart of stone. We are no longer dead. We are able to believe. In this way the entire process is wrought by God alone. Man receives none of the glory. Think about it this way Wild. If you or I could say that we chose Christ by faith and of our own free will, then we have something to boast about. We rob of His glory. We take some of the credit. Salvation then becomes partly of works.

I know I didn't answer all your questions. I have to get to work but I will pleased to respond to completion later this evening.

I hope some of this was helpful.

Wow, a history lesson. Thank you. Naturally, being an ignorant person I didn't know any of that, and it all proves that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

Sorry ... that's sarcasm. But:

If Calvinism is a misnomer, how did you know what I was writing about? Obviously it's not a misnomer, but simply another name by which the false doctrine is recognized.

Yes, you can trace much of Calvinism's false doctrine back to Augustine who, by the way, is credited with being the founder of the Roman Catholic Church. Augustine also believed that you could not get into heaven without being baptized into the Catholic Church. Are you suggesting that he is the basis of sound theological argument?

Ahhh, all the rest. The favorite arguments of those trained to follow the teachings of Jean Chauvin, the Frenchman who never actually was a Reformist. Show me the scripture, not the arguments of men! Show me one plain, clear verse that says that all of the other verses don't mean what they say. </font>[/QUOTE]Wild, I was going to respond but have decided not to. I will not play the sarcasm game. It is my opinion that really don't want to uncover the truth, you just want to rant and rave. I'm moving on.

 

[webdog]

Can you point me to the Bible text that says "any man"? You are here lecturing us about staying true to what the text actually says and the literal translation here is "any"... not "anyone" or "any man".

"Whosoever" has the meaning of "anyone", which I assume would include "any man".

 

[Scott J]

No. Wildfire's method and standard for debate is that we don't assume or interpret. It only means what it obviously means... from his perspective of what it means to be "obvious" of course.

Further, whosoever does not mean anyone within that context. "Who" might mean any one but whosoever is a qualified group.

 

[webdog]

The word "whosoever" is taken from "pas", which does indeed have the meaning of anyone, which is the correct context in verse 16, and why "whosoever" and "whoever" are the english words translated from the greek.

 

[Andy T.]

I just posted this on another thread:

Yes, whosoever means anyone, but that is not the entire phrase. The word "will" is also included. And "will" means: 'The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action.' I know that you don't believe that those who are unwilling to believe on Christ are saved, correct? And I'm sure you believe that those who are willing are saved, right? We both agree with these truths. Once again, where we differ is from where that good will originates.

The word 'whosoever' used in Scripture always has a modifier attached to it - usually "believe" or "will" or "obey", etc. Otherwise, if you just look at the 'whosoever' and ignore the modifier, you fall into universalism.

I think this is what Scott J. is trying to get at.

 

[epistemaniac]

monergistic regeneration, ie regeneration precedes faith...

1Jo 5:1 esv Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Joh 1:12-13 esv But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
(13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 6:63 esv It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.


wildfire advises

Don't confuse God's will with His plan, and don't always trust the English translations concerning these words.

ahhh... but we should trust you..... riigghhtttt, how many years of Greek and Hebrew have you had wildfire? what makes you qualified to "correct" our English translations?

blessings,
Ken

 

[Scott J]

Yes. Thanks Andy.

 

[webdog]

ahhh... but we should trust you..... riigghhtttt, how many years of Greek and Hebrew have you had wildfire? what makes you qualified to "correct" our English translations?

Maybe you have heard of it...THE HOLY SPIRIT. Who cares how many years of HUMAN KNOWLEDGE a fellow believer has. He has everything he needs, and pretty much explains the reasoning of calvinists...follow the smart man.

 

[lindell dunning1]

Dear friend,
In response to this:Calvinists will fall back (like the post above) on Ephesians 2, etc., and say that believing equals works and therefore can't be part of the equation. But in all of the many, many passages that talk about repentence, faith, and believing, not a single one of them says that God must first regenerate the person before they can believe. Not one.
The Lord says to Nicodemus in John 3:3 that unless one is born again,he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus is befuddled and ask a pretty silly question.
The Lord says to him that flesh is flesh and the spirit is spirit. Is the Lord not saying to him that flesh can never bring to birth the spirit?
Isn't the Lord telling Nicodemus in verse 8 that the spirit is bringing to birth everyone that He chooses to bring to birth?
Is not the Lord giving Nicodemus the assurance that now that you believe in Me,you have everlasting life as verses 15 and 16 state?
Verse 21 is most profound and rarely noticed by folks who are focused only on John 3:16. All the above from John 3:1 through 21 have all been done in God.
Perhaps the greatest error that is made concerning the Lord's dialogue with Nicodemus is verse 16 is presented as an invitation to come and help yourself get born again through your believing.
When in reality,all the Lord is saying in verse 16 is that because you believe,the action in verse 8 has already taken place and you can take comfort from it.
I cannot find that the Lord told Nicodemus to contribute anything to the new birth. If by chance I have overlooked a requirement of man to help himself get born again from above,then please feel free to show me and I will most certainly change my religious thinking.
One of the grandest themes in the Bible is Paul's conversion. The Lord ambushed him as he was going about to persecute those who confessed Jesus. Paul wasn't looking for the Savior. On the contrary,the Master was looking for one of His sheep. How can your heart not melt when you read Paul's statement in Galatians 1:15? "For when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace".
Paul tells us who is the source of not only his faith,but love also.
1 Timothy 1:14 "And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant,with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus".
And lastly, Ephesians 6:23. "And peace to the brethren,and love with faith,from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ".

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Ok, here's how I view this topic. This is to Wildfire and ANYONE ELSE willing to listen.

You can point out verses that seem to CLEARLY state that man has total free will.

I can point out verses that seem to CLEARLY say the opposite.

We could post "clear" verses to each other until the sky turns polka-dotted, and it won't prove anything.

People have been doing it for years on this thread.

It's pointless.

There are a ZILLION books out there on the topic.

If you truly feel you have the knowledge and authority to settle the debate online in a thread, or even twenty threads, more power to ya, but I have a suggestion. (apart from we all need to get over ourselves if we think we can "win" a debate on this topic)

Here's the suggestion. Quit doing what everyone else has been doing for years. We can all go out and get books written by people with more study and authority on the topic than we have.

What NEEDS to be done is equal treatment of the "clear" verses, and that means you can't ignore the ones that point out lack of free will and I can't ignore the ones that point out free will.

I can't tell you how tired I am of being called a heretic and that I believe in the doctrine of devils and so forth by everyone and their mamma. I'm sure that both sides are.

"Come, let us reason together".
TOGETHER.

I haven't met anyone on here, EVER, apart from one former member who has, sadly, passed on, that was willing to look at ALL of the verses in context, sit down, study, and have real discussions that were sane, left out sarcasm, and left off stating "this is how it is", and instead studied and posted with the person of the opposite opinion, rather than against them.

If you or anyone else can do that, it's worth coming together and studying this. On God's terms. Not with my rules, not with yours.

Anyone game?

Okey dokey then.

Goodness, people are hard hearted! How silly is it to desire strife rather than decent conversation?

As you wish.

Someone pm me when all the CvA threads are done, and let me know who finally had the right answer that changed everyone's minds to the one, perfect, reply, ok?

 

[pinoybaptist]

wildfire says:

.....just show me one clear passage that says a man must be regenerated by God before he can believe.

The Bible says:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins .....Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved Ephesians 2:1,5[/b]

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; ... Col. 2:13

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Jeremiah 13:23

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh..Eze.36:26

Analyze this (apologies to Robert de Niro and his fans).

Not one, but four.

Oh, and it will probably help you if you study what hardened his heart means, with regards to Pharaoh.

A wildfire can burn itself out, sooner or later. No disrespect.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />ahhh... but we should trust you..... riigghhtttt, how many years of Greek and Hebrew have you had wildfire? what makes you qualified to "correct" our English translations?

Maybe you have heard of it...THE HOLY SPIRIT. Who cares how many years of HUMAN KNOWLEDGE a fellow believer has. He has everything he needs, and pretty much explains the reasoning of calvinists...follow the smart man. </font>[/QUOTE]so... since all Christians have the Holy Spirit... all Christians are free to change our English translations? This does not seem wise....

blessings,
Ken

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
wildfire says:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
.....just show me one clear passage that says a man must be regenerated by God before he can believe.

The Bible says:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins .....Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved Ephesians 2:1,5

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; ... Col. 2:13

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Jeremiah 13:23

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh..Eze.36:26

Analyze this (apologies to Robert de Niro and his fans).

Not one, but four.

Oh, and it will probably help you if you study what hardened his heart means, with regards to Pharaoh.

A wildfire can burn itself out, sooner or later. No disrespect. [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]The text does not state the "quickening" happens prior to faith, on the contrary "with Him" is the catalyst.

 

[Timtoolman]

Gina L

I haven't met anyone on here, EVER, apart from one former member who has, sadly, passed on, that was willing to look at ALL of the verses in context, sit down, study, and have real discussions that were sane, left out sarcasm, and left off stating "this is how it is", and instead studied and posted with the person of the opposite opinion, rather than against them.

I desire to be like that.

 

[Wildfire]

Originally posted by Gina L:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wildfire:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gina L:
*sigh*

I'll do to you what I've done to others. Hold on, it's a fun ride.

The quiz. You cannot move on with any unanswered questions. This will be a series of ten.

Question one: We don't choose to be sinners on our way to hell. We're born that way. So...when does our free will begin?

Gina, I'll be happy to let you make up new rules for the thread some other day. If you can show me a single Scripture that actually says the things listed above, we can move on to your questions. But, mind you, not one of those deep-hidden-meaning things. Something as clearly as 1 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that anyone should perish. </font>[/QUOTE]Well. THAT isn't the way it was supposed to work! LOL! Everyone is supposed to listen to ME!

Ok, here's how I view this topic. This is to Wildfire and ANYONE ELSE willing to listen.

You can point out verses that seem to CLEARLY state that man has total free will.

I can point out verses that seem to CLEARLY say the opposite.

We could post "clear" verses to each other until the sky turns polka-dotted, and it won't prove anything.

People have been doing it for years on this thread.

It's pointless.

There are a ZILLION books out there on the topic.

If you truly feel you have the knowledge and authority to settle the debate online in a thread, or even twenty threads, more power to ya, but I have a suggestion. (apart from we all need to get over ourselves if we think we can "win" a debate on this topic)

Here's the suggestion. Quit doing what everyone else has been doing for years. We can all go out and get books written by people with more study and authority on the topic than we have.

What NEEDS to be done is equal treatment of the "clear" verses, and that means you can't ignore the ones that point out lack of free will and I can't ignore the ones that point out free will.

I can't tell you how tired I am of being called a heretic and that I believe in the doctrine of devils and so forth by everyone and their mamma. I'm sure that both sides are.

"Come, let us reason together".
TOGETHER.

I haven't met anyone on here, EVER, apart from one former member who has, sadly, passed on, that was willing to look at ALL of the verses in context, sit down, study, and have real discussions that were sane, left out sarcasm, and left off stating "this is how it is", and instead studied and posted with the person of the opposite opinion, rather than against them.

If you or anyone else can do that, it's worth coming together and studying this. On God's terms. Not with my rules, not with yours.

Anyone game? </font>[/QUOTE]Gina, I'm certainly game, though I must tell you that what you're suggesting is where I have been already.

But here's the big question. You say that you can provide a verse -- and I'm assuming you mean one in context, not like cherry-picking Ezekiel 36:26 -- that says the man does not have a free will. I've asked countless Calvinists to provide me with such a verse. That's usually when they start accusing instead of responding.

If you can actually provide a verse that clearly says that no man has free will to decide whether he will accept or reject God, I will concede all other Calvinist points.

 

[Wildfire]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Oh... so instead of just accepting what it says, we must accept an explanation designed to conform to your system, right?

Now, if He has already predestined who is saved, what does he have to be patient about?

Notably "patient" is your word... not God's. </font>

Sorry Scott. You need to do better homework before you jump off accusing people. "Patient" is the NIV translation of the word that is elsewhere translated "longsuffering." Both words have the same meaning.

So, as you can see, your assumption that I'm trying to conform the Scripture to my own meaning is really just a result of your own lack of study and understanding of the terms.

 

[Andy T.]

If you can actually provide a verse that clearly says that no man has free will to decide whether he will accept or reject God, I will concede all other Calvinist points.

There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.

- Romans 3:10-11

Also, Romans 9. Now, I know we disagree with each other on the interpretation of these verses, but to keep repeating the same mantra of "not one verse" supports your view is tiresome. It reminds me of those who deny the Trinity who say there is "not one verse" that has Trinity in it or defines it. Well, sure, but orthodox Christians understand many passages to be speaking of the Trinity and they formulate their doctrine from those verses. Same thing here - you and I have come to different formulations, that's all.