-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Calvinism and the God of Second Chances
- Thread starter Wildfire
- Start date
Context ALWAYS qualifies a statement. ALL of these phrases fall into their immediate context as well as the context of the whole of scripture.
Do any deserve salvation? Is God guilty because these people have freely... no, insistently chosen sin over Him? NO.
We simply recognize that while none deserved to be saved it pleased God to save some anyway.
Any way you slice it or dice it, it always comes back to the question of "first cause". Is it God's goodness that makes the critical difference between those who believe and those who don't or is it the goodness of the individual?
As a calvinist, that is not a view that I ascribe to. They most certainly have a choice. And uniformly make the moral judgment to sin and choose themselves over God.
No. But you have assigned a view to us that at least I don't believe.
I'm not so sure about this, in that if God sets the standard for salvation (faith in Christ), and we meet that standard, isn't God obligated to do what He says He will do with the requirements He gave? Wouldn't believers "deserve" salvation? I'm not saying there is anything within any man that is deserving of salvation, but if God sets the requirements, He will keep His word!
So it also follows that God would be pleased to send the rest to Hell?!? This goes against Scripture.
It's all from God...from His sending His Son to earth to be a sacrifice for us, to the requirements He sets forth in obtaining salvation. We can meet those requirements, or reject them. Either way it still does not lend itself to those who meet the requirements doing anything on their own to garner salvation.
If they have no other choice, since God doesn't allow them the other option of choosing Him, it becomes no longer a choice, choice being an option of two or more things.
Come on guys. I'm tired of you continually asking for a verse that says we have free will. God is not willing that anyone should perish. (2 Peter 3:9). That means, in plain language, that he doesn't choose for anyone to perish. Thus crumbles the entire basis of Calvinist doctrine. Only by changing the meaning of words do you get anything else.
Whosover believes (Jn 3:16). The choice to believe. No other qualifier.
And on, and on. It's the Calvinist who add the qualifiers completely out of context, and provide supporting Scripture that doesn't say anything even remotely as clear as the verses they're trying to rewrite.
All means all. World means world. Anyone means anyone. Whosoever means whosoever, whether it modifies "will" or "believe" or anything else. But first you change the meaning of all of those words, then you provide another passage out of context to justify the change, then you ask me to give you yet another example.
Scripture is plain. Take the warning of Proverbs 3:5 seriously and stop digging for secret meanings in verses where they ARE NOT HIDING.
God wants you to know that his grace is free to all who choose to accept it.
Whosover believes (Jn 3:16). The choice to believe. No other qualifier.
And on, and on. It's the Calvinist who add the qualifiers completely out of context, and provide supporting Scripture that doesn't say anything even remotely as clear as the verses they're trying to rewrite.
All means all. World means world. Anyone means anyone. Whosoever means whosoever, whether it modifies "will" or "believe" or anything else. But first you change the meaning of all of those words, then you provide another passage out of context to justify the change, then you ask me to give you yet another example.
Scripture is plain. Take the warning of Proverbs 3:5 seriously and stop digging for secret meanings in verses where they ARE NOT HIDING.
God wants you to know that his grace is free to all who choose to accept it.
Context ALWAYS qualifies a statement. ALL of these phrases fall into their immediate context as well as the context of the whole of scripture.
Do any deserve salvation? Is God guilty because these people have freely... no, insistently chosen sin over Him? NO.
We simply recognize that while none deserved to be saved it pleased God to save some anyway.
Any way you slice it or dice it, it always comes back to the question of "first cause". Is it God's goodness that makes the critical difference between those who believe and those who don't or is it the goodness of the individual?
As a calvinist, that is not a view that I ascribe to. They most certainly have a choice. And uniformly make the moral judgment to sin and choose themselves over God.
No. But you have assigned a view to us that at least I don't believe. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you. Then we agree, finally, that man has a choice. And since the only choice that can keep us from Hell is whether or not we accept Christ as Savior, then we must agree that we have that choice. And if we have that choice, we must agree that God doesn't make it for us.
Because otherwise, you're just saying that you actually do believe exactly the opposite: That God, for His good pleasure, decides who will go to Hell, and those people have no choice or control to do anything to keep them from Hell.
We don't disagree on that. Without God's mercy extended to us at the cross, nothing we could do would save us. But this talks not a word of election and regeneration being a prerequisite to faith. </font>[/QUOTE]I was referring to whole of chapter 9. The word "election" is in verse 11. Therefore, your "talks not a word" mantra is false. If we disagree on what election means in verse 11, fine, but stop with the "not a verse" lies.
You've been given verses above about regeneration preceding faith. And oh, by the way, you have yet to give any verses that cleary show our faith is what causes regeneration. Still waiting...
Eph. 2:1-10 -
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Notice that verse 8 is where faith is first mentioned. Verses 1 and 5 speak of regeneration. The way I see this passage structured, regeneration precedes faith. Same principle in John 3, too.
Romans 9:14-24 -
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
No hidden meanings. No word twisting. It's pretty straightforward.
We don't disagree on that. Without God's mercy extended to us at the cross, nothing we could do would save us. But this talks not a word of election and regeneration being a prerequisite to faith. </font>[/QUOTE]I was referring to whole of chapter 9. The word "election" is in verse 11. Therefore, your "talks not a word" mantra is false. If we disagree on what election means in verse 11, fine, but stop with the "not a verse" lies.
You've been given verses above about regeneration preceding faith. And oh, by the way, you have yet to give any verses that cleary show our faith is what causes regeneration. Still waiting...
Eph. 2:1-10 -
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Notice that verse 8 is where faith is first mentioned. Verses 1 and 5 speak of regeneration. The way I see this passage structured, regeneration precedes faith. Same principle in John 3, too. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you see what you do? I said that there's not a word that make election a prerequisite, and you change what I said so that you can argue with it, then call me a liar.
That -- in a nutshell -- is exactly the way Calvinism works.
Since I didn't say the thing you called me a liar for, the basis of your entire response falls short. And since I have previously addressed that Romans 9 is clear that God is sovereign and He makes the rules. He knows in advance whether Pharaoh or Judas or anyone else will choose Him. This knowledge is not election. It's knowledge. Based on that knowledge, he chooses time and circumstance, as He did with Saul of Tarsus, Pharaoh, and other. But He doesn't take away free choice in doing it.
God makes the rules. He spells them out clearly in John 3:16-17. Then He lives by them. Romans 9 doesn't say a single word about election and regeneration coming before faith ... not in any words. Nor does it say that what he did to Pharaoh under the covenant of Law is what He does today under the covenant of Christ's blood.
You have born false witness against me by changing my words and then calling me a liar. That's a sin. If God elected you and regenerated you, are you perfect? Do you still sin? Isn't that your choice?
Wildfire, I didn't call you a liar (i.e., one who habitually lies). But I do think it is dishonest to keep saying "not one verse" supports the Doctrines of Grace.
Yes, I do sin, even as a Christian. All of my sin is my own fault, and any good that I do is all of God and not of myself - He gets all the glory.
Yes, I do sin, even as a Christian. All of my sin is my own fault, and any good that I do is all of God and not of myself - He gets all the glory.
2 Corinthians 5:16-17. Doesn't say "once we are a new creature (regeneration), then we are in Christ." It says those in Christ are a new creature. Before you argue, read the Greek, in which the position and tenses are very clear. </font>[/QUOTE]I can't read Greek, but I checked several English translations and they all use the word "is" before the phrase "in Christ" and "new creation". So it's inconclusive. It's saying that anyone who is saved is also regenerated. We both agree with that. This verse doesn't speak to sequence.
Context ALWAYS qualifies a statement. ALL of these phrases fall into their immediate context as well as the context of the whole of scripture.
Do any deserve salvation? Is God guilty because these people have freely... no, insistently chosen sin over Him? NO.
We simply recognize that while none deserved to be saved it pleased God to save some anyway.
Any way you slice it or dice it, it always comes back to the question of "first cause". Is it God's goodness that makes the critical difference between those who believe and those who don't or is it the goodness of the individual?
As a calvinist, that is not a view that I ascribe to. They most certainly have a choice. And uniformly make the moral judgment to sin and choose themselves over God.
No. But you have assigned a view to us that at least I don't believe. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you. Then we agree, finally, that man has a choice. And since the only choice that can keep us from Hell is whether or not we accept Christ as Savior, then we must agree that we have that choice. And if we have that choice, we must agree that God doesn't make it for us.</font>[/QUOTE] But whose goodness causes that choice? Did you choose because you were good or because God imparted His goodness to you?
A good "choice" is a meritorious act. You cannot separate a "good choice" from the goodness of the one who made it. Now the question remains, did God put that goodness there or was it created by the individual?
If it is your contention that the cause of your choice that separates you from those who reject Christ was your good will... then I am very interested in how you deny that this equates to merit.
Nope. Non sequitur.
All who go to hell decide that for themselves.
No one decides to go to heaven except it by God's gracious good pleasure. It is all of HIS goodness and none of mine. It is very accurately said that I brought nothing to my salvation but my sin.
Yes they do. They can refuse sin for one. All sin is willful and Romans 2 tells us that even those without the law know what sin is by the conscience God granted them.
Romans 9:14-24 -
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
No hidden meanings. No word twisting. It's pretty straightforward. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, the verse is very straightforward. God is sovereign. He decides. With Pharaoh, under the covenant of law, God chose the time to judge his heart and give him no more chances.
But note! It says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. How can a Calvinist claim this as proof of the Calvinist view? In the Calvinist view of Total Depravity, God wouldn't have to harden Pharaoh's heart. He would have to regenerate Pharaoh or leave him alone. No other action needed.
So Romans 9 proves that before Pharaoh's heart was hardened, it wasn't hardened. In other words, the reverse of Calvinism!
But there's more. You're taking an example of how God dealt with Pharaoh's hardened heart as an example of how He deals with all men. It doesn't say anything like that. This is the same as saying that because Paul was converted on the road to Demascus, that's how we all must be converted.
So God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And He has offered the terms: Believe in My Son, and I will have mercy on you (exactly as it says in John 3:16, with no thoughts or words added). End of story.
Context ALWAYS qualifies a statement. ALL of these phrases fall into their immediate context as well as the context of the whole of scripture.
Do any deserve salvation? Is God guilty because these people have freely... no, insistently chosen sin over Him? NO.
We simply recognize that while none deserved to be saved it pleased God to save some anyway.
Any way you slice it or dice it, it always comes back to the question of "first cause". Is it God's goodness that makes the critical difference between those who believe and those who don't or is it the goodness of the individual?
As a calvinist, that is not a view that I ascribe to. They most certainly have a choice. And uniformly make the moral judgment to sin and choose themselves over God.
No. But you have assigned a view to us that at least I don't believe. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you. Then we agree, finally, that man has a choice. And since the only choice that can keep us from Hell is whether or not we accept Christ as Savior, then we must agree that we have that choice. And if we have that choice, we must agree that God doesn't make it for us.</font>[/QUOTE] But whose goodness causes that choice? Did you choose because you were good or because God imparted His goodness to you?
A good "choice" is a meritorious act. You cannot separate a "good choice" from the goodness of the one who made it. Now the question remains, did God put that goodness there or was it created by the individual?
If it is your contention that the cause of your choice that separates you from those who reject Christ was your good will... then I am very interested in how you deny that this equates to merit.
Nope. Non sequitur.
All who go to hell decide that for themselves.
No one decides to go to heaven except it by God's gracious good pleasure. It is all of HIS goodness and none of mine. It is very accurately said that I brought nothing to my salvation but my sin.
Yes they do. They can refuse sin for one. All sin is willful and Romans 2 tells us that even those without the law know what sin is by the conscience God granted them. </font>[/QUOTE]Now, which way do you want it? First you tell me that God alone elects who goes to Heaven. Then you tell me that people go to Hell only because of the choices they make.
This is not a non sequitur. This is what you're saying to me. If God alone decides who is regenerated and goes to Heaven, then how can you also say that people have free will in making the decision to go to Hell?
There is only one way to Heaven. That's through the Son. No other way. So the only way to choose not to go to Hell is to choose the Son. If God elects who will make that choice, and doesn't let the others make the choice, how can you possibly tell me they have chosen anything?
Then, this merciful, gracious Calvinist God condemns to Hell those who didn't choose His Son, even though the only way they could choose is if He let them. So God picks people to go to Hell because it pleases Him, not because they have made any choice whatsoever.
Because they're sinful? If only God can regenerate them, they don't have a choice. Because they didn't pick Christ? If only God can elect them to salvation, they don't have a choice.
Nope. No non sequitur here. You're either saying that man has the choice, or your saying that God has the choice. You can't have it both ways. And if your God has the choice, and He chooses to send people to Hell for something they have no choice or control over, He is a tyrant.
My God wouldn't do that.
2 Corinthians 5:16-17. Doesn't say "once we are a new creature (regeneration), then we are in Christ." It says those in Christ are a new creature. Before you argue, read the Greek, in which the position and tenses are very clear. </font>[/QUOTE]I can't read Greek, but I checked several English translations and they all use the word "is" before the phrase "in Christ" and "new creation". So it's inconclusive. It's saying that anyone who is saved is also regenerated. We both agree with that. This verse doesn't speak to sequence. </font>[/QUOTE]Not inconclusive at all. In the Greek, one phrase is a precedent, and one is an anticedent. It's clear. Those in Christ are new creatures, in that order.
Andy, You seem like a sincere and genuine guy. Please understand that I wouldn't be so adament and passionate if we were talking about an obscure passage of prophecy that we don't understand.
We're talking about the very nature of God. He has revealed to us that He is the God of mercy and love, as well as the God of judgment. He set the terms for salvation at the cross.
To accuse God of sending people to Hell because they didn't make a choice He won't let them make is blasphemy.
If I said to you, "Those with the winning lottery ticket are winners," would it be inconclusive which comes first ... winning the lottery or having the ticket?
That's how clear the Greek is in 2 Cor 5:16-17. Those in Christ are new creatures. You see, in Greek, verbs have very clear tenses. In fact, the Greek here really says "... in Christ are continuously becoming new creatures" because of the tense of the verb. So regeneration is ongoing.
When you admitted to me that we all continue to sin, you confirmed this translation. If you were fully and completely regenerated you would be the completely perfected person in Christ. That process doesn't come to completion in this life, so this confirms that regeneration is an ongoing process in believers. ("Christ is doing a work in you, which He will bring to completion.")
This is not just an academic discussion. If we believe in the God of grace, we must believe that He keeps His promises ... that the terms He established at the cross are the ones He will always follow. "For WHOSOEVER [anyone, without exclusion] believes [nothing here about any other qualifier preceding belief] ... "
"Only believe and you will be saved." Not, "If God elects you, you will believe."
Please, don't slander God by making Him the tyrant of Calvinism.
We're talking about the very nature of God. He has revealed to us that He is the God of mercy and love, as well as the God of judgment. He set the terms for salvation at the cross.
To accuse God of sending people to Hell because they didn't make a choice He won't let them make is blasphemy.
If I said to you, "Those with the winning lottery ticket are winners," would it be inconclusive which comes first ... winning the lottery or having the ticket?
That's how clear the Greek is in 2 Cor 5:16-17. Those in Christ are new creatures. You see, in Greek, verbs have very clear tenses. In fact, the Greek here really says "... in Christ are continuously becoming new creatures" because of the tense of the verb. So regeneration is ongoing.
When you admitted to me that we all continue to sin, you confirmed this translation. If you were fully and completely regenerated you would be the completely perfected person in Christ. That process doesn't come to completion in this life, so this confirms that regeneration is an ongoing process in believers. ("Christ is doing a work in you, which He will bring to completion.")
This is not just an academic discussion. If we believe in the God of grace, we must believe that He keeps His promises ... that the terms He established at the cross are the ones He will always follow. "For WHOSOEVER [anyone, without exclusion] believes [nothing here about any other qualifier preceding belief] ... "
"Only believe and you will be saved." Not, "If God elects you, you will believe."
Please, don't slander God by making Him the tyrant of Calvinism.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
God doesn't HAVE to do anything. He choses to save the elect by his sovereign choice and he chose to harden Pharaoh's Heart by his sovereign choice as well.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick