Calvinism and the Love of God

[saturneptune]

He didn't say Willis is stupid, you are not reading with comprehension. Read again;



Dr Ach is saying that the Reformed/Calvinist view of God makes God cruel, as he creates billions of men without the ability to believe, but makes an insincere offer to save them if they will do what God already knows they cannot possibly do. I agree, this would be to mock men for their inability.

Dr Ach contrasts this to the non-Cal view that men have the ability to believe if they so choose, so God offering to save them if they believe is legit and bona fide, but if a man who is able to believe chooses not to do so, then he is stupid. I agree.

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

God himself calls people who will not listen and turn to him "simple" and "fools".
It is not because they cannot listen and turn, but because they hated knowledge and despised God's reproof.

And this is exactly what Dr Ach was saying as well, he was not saying anything about Willis.

In the sense of his post, he (the Dr) calls all who believe in God's sovereignty stupid. That is not the main offense. God is the Creator, and has a right to call man's decisions wise or stupid. We, the created being, do not. In fact, if you have ever read Matthew 6, the words are quite clear, we do not have that right.

 

[Winman]

In the sense of his post, he (the Dr) calls all who believe in God's sovereignty stupid. That is not the main offense. God is the Creator, and has a right to call man's decisions wise or stupid. We, the created being, do not. In fact, if you have ever read Matthew 6, the words are quite clear, we do not have that right.

That's a false argument, we non-Cals also believe in the sovereignty of God.

You are correct, God can call men simpletons and fools, but God does so when the term applies.

If men do not have the ability to believe, and God knows it, then if he offers salvation to these persons who cannot believe, that offer cannot be bona fide or legit.

That would be like me offering a million dollars to a blind man if he could read today's newspaper to me. It would be a joke, and if anything would be making fun of his blindness. This is the Reformed/Calvinist view of God.

If on the other hand the person can read, they would be foolish not to read the paper and collect the million dollars.

You guys simply cannot see how stupid your doctrine really is. I am sorry if that sounds harsh and cruel, but it's true. I would be embarrassed of such a doctrine, it is making a monkey out of you.

It not only makes you guys look foolish, it makes God to appear to be a monster and cruel. And yet you guys cling to this nonsense.

 

[Mexdeaf]

No one has yet qualified what constitutes a "bona fide" offer of salvation from the Scriptures.

Psalm 19:1-4a -

The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2 Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.

Combined with Romans 1:19,20 -

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

And Romans 10:18-21 -

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”


Show us that God has made a bona fide offer of salvation to every person.


The problem is not with God, the problem is with people being "stupid" and rejecting the light that God has so clearly revealed-


Romans 1:18, 21


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

That's Scripture.

 

[Winman]

Show us that God has made a bona fide offer of salvation to every person.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

The problem is not with God, the problem is with people being "stupid" and rejecting the light that God has so clearly revealed-

Isn't this exactly what Dr Ach and I just said?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Isn't this exactly what Dr Ach and I just said?

No. Ach claims that Calvinists position is "God creating someone for the sole purpose of condemning them, and even desiring their fate, and WITHOUT a bona fide offer of salvation..."

That's not the Calvinist position at all.