Calvinism and the origin of evil

[Amy.G]

This is what that leads to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg-qgmJ7nzA

Well, that made me sick. He and Osteen make a good pair, although I think this guy is even worse.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, that made me sick. He and Osteen make a good pair, although I think this guy is even worse.

But he is selling books.....Ca Ching!:tear:

The liberal Mamby Pambies in NYC will just love em!

 

[Skandelon]

You missed the differentiation between proximate and remote cause.

Oh, do tell. Is it in any way related to a proximate and remote decree?

 

[Skandelon]

He is the cause of evil BUT ONLY IN A REMOTE sense- not in the sense that he creates it because evil is not created.

All that must happen for evil to exist is for good to vacate. It is much like the fact that darkness is not something that is created. It is nothing but the absence of light.

So, when Satan first intended "I want to be God," that intent/desire really didn't exist, but was just the absence of God? I don't understand?

There had to be a creator of that intent, right? It's not an eternal intent, is it?

Please explain.

 

[Skandelon]

Take stacked dominoes for example.

If I take my finger and directly thump one of them, I am the proximate cause of its fall.

But if I thump the first one only, and the hundredth one falls, I am the remote or ULTIMATE cause of it's fall.

The illustration breaks down theologically but the difference between the two is clear in the illustration.

God arranged the world so that evil would inevitable come to pass much like you arrange the dominoes so that the hundredth will fall.

But God did not thump the first domino. He simply made it so that it cannot stand without his assistance. When he removed his assistance it fell and caused the fall of many others.

Considering your view that motive is all that matters why do you go through all these complex explanations as to make God not the thumper of the first domino? Why not say, as you have before, that God did it but for a good motive, so it is not evil?

 

[Winman]

The scriptures tell us where sin originated.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found IN THEE.
Sin originated in Satan. He was not created sinful, he was created perfect. In addition, Eze 28:17 explains the CAUSE of his sin, his heart was lifted up BECAUSE of his beauty, and that he corrupted his wisdom BY REASON of his brightness.
So, the cause of Satan's sin is explained, and it originated within himself. It was Satan that tipped over that first domino, not God.

 

[Crabtownboy]

So, the cause of Satan's sin is explained, and it originated within himself. It was Satan that tipped over that first domino, not God.

However if God predestined Satan to tip over the first domino how can Satan be guilty of anything other than doing what God had preordained?

To me this is the crux of the question raised by those who say nothing happens that God did not preordain.

 

[convicted1]

Hi Luke2427

"You missed the differentiation between proximate and remote cause."

No, I disagreed with your view of them. Proximate refers in your view with the immediate cause. Say a tornado rips up a church building in Kansas. The natural laws that govern creation, such as earth wind and fire (heat from the sun) send calamity over the wise and the foolish. Thus the proximate cause for the tornado hitting that church, in the absence of specific revelation telling us God directed it at the church building to cause a specific calamity, is that creation has been subjected to futility. On the other hand, the remote cause is God's over-arching purpose of using our harsh environment to lead us to God as a Refuge and a Rock. So much for natural calamity.

As for man-made evil, the proximate cause is the autonomous action of individuals and groups, but the remote cause is God allowing us to make autonomous choices for the purpose of us bringing glory to God. Needless to say, you may believe we cannot make autonomous choices, but that is what scripture says we do. Otherwise we must define choice as non-choice.

So I did not miss it, I look at it differently.

I agree with all of this post, and especially the portion I bolded and underlined. God knew that this morning at 4:10 I would be eating lasagna, but He didn't decree me to do it from eternity past. If I wear blue jeans, or dress pants and a button up, or polo shirt, I did so by my choice, not that He decreed me to do so. If I want fried chicken instead of a bologna sandwich, I have the right to make that choice. God didn't make "robots" that are programmed to do anything and everything He states, or that He choreographs(sp?) our every move.

 

[convicted1]

The scriptures tell us where sin originated.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found IN THEE.
Sin originated in Satan. He was not created sinful, he was created perfect. In addition, Eze 28:17 explains the CAUSE of his sin, his heart was lifted up BECAUSE of his beauty, and that he corrupted his wisdom BY REASON of his brightness.
So, the cause of Satan's sin is explained, and it originated within himself. It was Satan that tipped over that first domino, not God.

Brother, I used that verse a few times, and to no avail. Good luck with it!!

 

[Crabtownboy]

So, the cause of Satan's sin is explained, and it originated within himself. It was Satan that tipped over that first domino, not God.

Obviously then Satan used his free will to make a decision and enter sin into the world.

 

[Luke2427]

Considering your view that motive is all that matters why do you go through all these complex explanations as to make God not the thumper of the first domino? Why not say, as you have before, that God did it but for a good motive, so it is not evil?

Skandelon I will gladly answer your questions but you first need to answer these that I put to you about a month ago and have put them to you repeatedly ever since.

Did Joseph's brothers afflict Joseph?
Did God afflict Joseph?

Did Satan afflict Job?
Did God afflict Job?

Did Herod, Pilate, the Jews and the Romans kill Jesus Christ?
Did God kill Jesus Christ?

Answer those questions and I will be glad to answer some of yours.

 

[Luke2427]

The scriptures tell us where sin originated.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found IN THEE.
Sin originated in Satan. He was not created sinful, he was created perfect. In addition, Eze 28:17 explains the CAUSE of his sin, his heart was lifted up BECAUSE of his beauty, and that he corrupted his wisdom BY REASON of his brightness.
So, the cause of Satan's sin is explained, and it originated within himself. It was Satan that tipped over that first domino, not God.

No. Satan was the first domino that fell. He could not have fallen if God had not withdrawn his goodness from him just as darkness cannot be in a place unless light is withdrawn from that place.

 

[Crabtownboy]

No. Satan was the first domino that fell. He could not have fallen if God had not withdrawn his goodness from him just as darkness cannot be in a place unless light is withdrawn from that place.

Then it really was God who ushered evil into the world as Satan was doing only what God had predestined, and thus approved, that he, Satan, do. I do not believe this as it makes God evil and an instigator of evil.

Satan used his free will and ushered in evil on his own with no help from God.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, you ask me if I had read the Edwards quote. Yes I did. Several times.



As I said in another post, I do not believe God would decree sin, pain and evil so he could be glorified. That seems a great perversion to me. There is no love in decreeing sin, evil and pain. I do not believe God is so self-centered and selfish as to do that which Edwards says.

Just because you say there is no love in decreeing sin does not make it so. You need to back up such claims.

The Bible says the opposite of your claim.

Romans 5:8 "God shows his love for us in that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, Christ died for us."

God wanted to show his love for us.

There is a love for us that cannot be shown but against the backdrop of our sinfulness.

That love is GRACE. God giving us what we do not deserve and paying an infinitely high price to redeem us.

Love has never shined brighter than it did at Calvary. I know you must agree with this.

There can be no Calvary love without sin. There can be no grace and mercy without sin.

We will be happier creatures in heaven than all others BECAUSE we were redeemed. Scripture says we will sing a song that angels cannot sing. Scripture says that our salvation is something the ANGELS LONGINGLY look into.

Sin is necessary that God's love might shine MOST BRIGHTLY and that God's people might experience the MOST happiness forever.

Have you noticed how many negative words Edwards uses in this quote.

I don't see your point.

Again this is making God out to be selfish, egotistical being.

God MUST be selfish. For him to put anything above himself is idolatry.

It is right for all beings to put the highest premium on that which is highest.

It is sin for me to put the highest premium upon my happiness. Why? Because my happiness is NOT the HIGHEST and NOBLEST object.

Why is it right for me to have as my highest motive the glory of God in all that I do?

Because he is HIGHEST.

It would be dishonest for God to pretend as though anything else were worthier than he is.

It would be an abominable misappropriation of priorities for God to do things for higher motives than his own glory just as it would be for you or I to order our priorities so.

Because God is all-wise he cannot believe even for a second that anything is higher than him.

Because he is perfect he cannot have lesser than the highest of motives for anything that he does.

His glory is the highest of motives.

Therefore is it not only right but necessary that God be selfish.

Selfishness is for all other beings but God because only God is God.
The sin of selfishness for you and I or Lucifer or any other being is that those beings put self above that which is rightfully highest. Selfishness is blasphemy for any other creature but God.

But because God is God and is therefore the highest it would be sin for God NOT to be selfish. He must have pure and right motives for all that he does. The purest and most right of motives is the glory of God. God must be first and foremost motivated by his glory in all that he does.

So, to be happy I must be miserable.

No. For you, as a human, to be as happy as you can be you must have experienced misery.

There is no redemption to enjoy, no grace to experience, no mercy to be thankful for if there had never been any sin.

Do you, as a father ... if you are one ... deliberately inflict pain on your child so they can see how merciful you are when you treat their pain? You are convincing me more and more that Calvin is totally wrong.

Yes. I have five children. Three of them play ball. They have to practice which is difficult. They have to run and get in shape which is painful.

I push them to do it because I know they can never appreciate the glory of victory and accomplishment unless they have paid a price for it.

They also have homework. Even when they are tired they have to do it. When they receive an A (report cards came out yesterday-One of my daughters has a 98 average) they can appreciate it.

There is no FULL experience of happiness for humans apart from having known some degree of pain and having been delivered from it.

 

[Luke2427]

Then it really was God who ushered evil into the world as Satan was doing only what God had predestined, and thus approved, that he, Satan, do. I do not believe this as it makes God evil and an instigator of evil.

Satan used his free will and ushered in evil on his own with no help from God.

No. God does not approve of evil and there is no necessary link between God's approval and God's predestination of all that happens.

And Satan did not have help from God to do evil.

It was the opposite.

God removed his help from Satan and that is the ultimate cause of evil.

Had God continued to uphold Satan in holiness Satan would be holy to this day.

But God stopped upholding Satan in holiness.

God did not make Satan unholy.

He simply stopped making him and keeping him holy.

I do not MAKE darkness in a room when I turn off the light. I simply withdraw the light from that room.

God withdrew his holiness and perfection from Lucifer.

He did not have to "help" Lucifer to sin.

 

[Crabtownboy]

No. God does not approve of evil and there is no necessary link between God's approval and God's predestination of all that happens.

This seems a huge contradiction to me. How can God predestine evil but have no link to the approval of evil? Why, in your opinion, did God predestine evil if he did not approve of it?

I do not believe you can hold a belief that God predestined evil but not approve of it logically. And, I do believe God is a logical God. There is no good news in this belief.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No. God does not approve of evil and there is no necessary link between God's approval and God's predestination of all that happens.

And Satan did not have help from God to do evil.

It was the opposite.

God removed his help from Satan and that is the ultimate cause of evil.

Had God continued to uphold Satan in holiness Satan would be holy to this day.

But God stopped upholding Satan in holiness.

God did not make Satan unholy.

He simply stopped making him and keeping him holy.

I do not MAKE darkness in a room when I turn off the light. I simply withdraw the light from that room.

God withdrew his holiness and perfection from Lucifer.

He did not have to "help" Lucifer to sin.

Good answer Bro!:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

This seems a huge contradiction to me. How can God predestine evil but have no link to the approval of evil? Why, in your opinion, did God predestine evil if he did not approve of it?
I do not believe you can hold a belief that God predestined evil but not approve of it logically. And, I do believe God is a logical God. There is no good news in this belief.

Allow me to illustrate. Men can predestine some things to a certain degree. For example, my son has a hard time with focus. Because I know that without my help he will not complete his homework because he will let his mind wonder, I am able to predestine that he will of his own volition do some things that I do not approve of. Even though I do not approve of them as things in and of themselves, I have an ultimate purpose for them coming to pass.

I will say to him, "Rick, go to the homework room and finish this assignment in 20 minutes. If you do not, I will give you more assignments to do."

I do not approve of the fact that he is not going to stay focused and get the assignment done in the reasonable, allotted time I have provided. But I know without my help, without me looking over his shoulder and telling him every 2-3 minutes, "Look down at your work, Rick and get it done," - without that, I know that he is not going to get it done in time.

Yet, ultimately I WANT him not to get it done in time. The reason is that I WANT him to do the other assignment. I want him to have the practice on that particular subject.

So by my plan, and my willingness to predestine something that, in and of itself, I do not approve of, I am able to accomplish some great goals. I am able to teach him to focus and to get him more practice on that particular subject.

I predestined something that I do not approve of for what amounts to some ULTIMATELY great purposes.

If I can do that, God most certainly can.

Note: I did not directly CAUSE him to fail. I simply withdrew my help.

Note: I did not approve of his failure but I planned for it and predestined it for good reasons.

If I can do this, God most certainly can.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Allow me to illustrate. Men can predestine some things to a certain degree. For example, my son has a hard time with focus. Because I know that without my help he will not complete his homework because he will let his mind wonder, I am able to predestine that he will of his own volition do some things that I do not approve of. Even though I do not approve of them as things in and of themselves, I have an ultimate purpose for them coming to pass.

I will say to him, "Rick, go to the homework room and finish this assignment in 20 minutes. If you do not, I will give you more assignments to do."

I do not approve of the fact that he is not going to stay focused and get the assignment done in the reasonable, allotted time I have provided. But I know without my help, without me looking over his shoulder and telling him every 2-3 minutes, "Look down at your work, Rick and get it done," - without that, I know that he is not going to get it done in time.

Yet, ultimately I WANT him not to get it done in time. The reason is that I WANT him to do the other assignment. I want him to have the practice on that particular subject.

So by my plan, and my willingness to predestine something that, in and of itself, I do not approve of, I am able to accomplish some great goals. I am able to teach him to focus and to get him more practice on that particular subject.

I predestined something that I do not approve of for what amounts to some ULTIMATELY great purposes.

If I can do that, God most certainly can.

Note: I did not directly CAUSE him to fail. I simply withdrew my help.

Note: I did not approve of his failure but I planned for it and predestined it for good reasons.

If I can do this, God most certainly can.

I appreciate you reply, but fear it does not satisfy .... :tear:

You want your child to do something positive, get his assignments done. If he doesn't you will give an additional assignment. This is called discipline and I have no problem with discipline.

Now, more to the point of the thread ....

You set up a situation where your child will do something that you really do not approve up. I won't make it a moral issue. So, let us say your child has a violent allergy to chocolate but has absolutely no will power not to eat it if it is available. The allergy is one where upon putting chocolate into his mouth there is immediate projectile vomiting ... no time to run from the room. So, you set out nice, hot wonderful smelling brownies in the room with him. He picks up a brownie and takes a bite and immediately vomits all over the living room. You do not approve of his eating chocolate not of the vomiting ... after all it makes a huge mess. And now because you tempted him, predestined him to eat some chocolate and he does you punish him.

This is what you are saying God did and now God punishes the offender because he did what God did not want him to do, but which God, in essences, made him do through predestination.

 

[quantumfaith]

Just because you say there is no love in decreeing sin does not make it so. You need to back up such claims.

The Bible says the opposite of your claim.

Romans 5:8 "God shows his love for us in that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, Christ died for us."

God wanted to show his love for us.

There is a love for us that cannot be shown but against the backdrop of our sinfulness.

That love is GRACE. God giving us what we do not deserve and paying an infinitely high price to redeem us.

Love has never shined brighter than it did at Calvary. I know you must agree with this.

There can be no Calvary love without sin. There can be no grace and mercy without sin.

We will be happier creatures in heaven than all others BECAUSE we were redeemed. Scripture says we will sing a song that angels cannot sing. Scripture says that our salvation is something the ANGELS LONGINGLY look into.

Sin is necessary that God's love might shine MOST BRIGHTLY and that God's people might experience the MOST happiness forever.



I don't see your point.




God MUST be selfish. For him to put anything above himself is idolatry.

It is right for all beings to put the highest premium on that which is highest.

It is sin for me to put the highest premium upon my happiness. Why? Because my happiness is NOT the HIGHEST and NOBLEST object.

Why is it right for me to have as my highest motive the glory of God in all that I do?

Because he is HIGHEST.

It would be dishonest for God to pretend as though anything else were worthier than he is.

It would be an abominable misappropriation of priorities for God to do things for higher motives than his own glory just as it would be for you or I to order our priorities so.

Because God is all-wise he cannot believe even for a second that anything is higher than him.

Because he is perfect he cannot have lesser than the highest of motives for anything that he does.

His glory is the highest of motives.

Therefore is it not only right but necessary that God be selfish.

Selfishness is for all other beings but God because only God is God.
The sin of selfishness for you and I or Lucifer or any other being is that those beings put self above that which is rightfully highest. Selfishness is blasphemy for any other creature but God.

But because God is God and is therefore the highest it would be sin for God NOT to be selfish. He must have pure and right motives for all that he does. The purest and most right of motives is the glory of God. God must be first and foremost motivated by his glory in all that he does.



No. For you, as a human, to be as happy as you can be you must have experienced misery.

There is no redemption to enjoy, no grace to experience, no mercy to be thankful for if there had never been any sin.





Yes. I have five children. Three of them play ball. They have to practice which is difficult. They have to run and get in shape which is painful.

I push them to do it because I know they can never appreciate the glory of victory and accomplishment unless they have paid a price for it.

They also have homework. Even when they are tired they have to do it. When they receive an A (report cards came out yesterday-One of my daughters has a 98 average) they can appreciate it.

There is no FULL experience of happiness for humans apart from having known some degree of pain and having been delivered from it.

Yay!!! on the Love Luke, but be careful as you stated to me earlier..."you know where this leads".

BTW, this also does not prove your point either.