Calvinism and the problem of evil.

[atpollard]

But the bible is thankfully not dependent upon calvinism. God is omniscient so He knows all things that man will freely choose to do. He does not cause them to do them and is not waiting until the free agent exercises his free will to know what the agent has done.

So yes the agent could have chosen A or B but whatever the choice would turn out to be that is what God in His omniscience would have know the agent would in fact choose.

Joseph's brother's wanted to KILL him [Genesis 37:20], but God had another will ... so the brothers freely chose evil "within the boundaries constrained by God" [See Romans 1:24,26,28] ... all to fulfill the greater plan CHOSEN by God [Genesis 50:20]. That is what the LBCF 1689 was acknowledging with what you call a "contradictory statement".

 

[KenH]

Not running away from my statement @KenH.

Yes, you are.

Saying you quote scripture does not say you do not use various authors.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave I do not have to accuse God of being the cause of all the evil in the world I leave that to the calvinists. It is your WCF/LBCF or do you deny those also. Dave you can dance around all you want but the bare facts are that calvinism is a deterministic philosophy. Joseph's brother saw the chance to make some money and not have his blood on their hands so their sold him, that's free will. Genesis 37:25-27

Maybe someone on here with some actual theological training could help but I don't think the confessions were designed primarily as detailed philosophical arguments. They were intended to act as uniting documents and set limits for fellowship of like minded churches. The confessions deny that God creates evil or violates the free will of his creatures and is deterministic in that his purposes will all be accomplished and he is ultimately sovereign over all.

That is why you have serious high Calvinists who preach really good salvation sermons and warn that God's calling can be resisted to the point of him deciding that grace is going to be withdrawn and you have differing views on exactly what a man's "free will" truly means. Others only put forth Christ and him crucified and figure the Holy Spirt will draw the elect. They do not believe it is helpful to threaten, warn, or reason with men about coming to Christ whereas the former group believes that even the direct work of the Holy Spirit will work with man at the level of his conscious, rational mind. The confessions have room for both and I think it was done that way on purpose.

When you attack the confessions because they contain expansive language and pretend it's a theological contradiction just remember that that has no meaning to someone who has a carefully developed theology but still operates within the confession. They are allowed to do that whether you like a confession or not.

 

[Silverhair]

Joseph's brother's wanted to KILL him [Genesis 37:20], but God had another will ... so the brothers freely chose evil "within the boundaries constrained by God" [See Romans 1:24,26,28] ... all to fulfill the greater plan CHOSEN by God [Genesis 50:20]. That is what the LBCF 1689 was acknowledging with what you call a "contradictory statement".

So you are saying that God determines all evil. He is the author of evil because even the calvinist free will is decreed by God. Not a biblical view but according to the calvinist view it has been determined that you believe it. Why God would want you to believe a false view, not sure but that's the way it is.

If God decree's all things then what things did He not decree?

 

[Silverhair]

Maybe someone on here with some actual theological training could help but I don't think the confessions were designed primarily as detailed philosophical arguments. They were intended to act as uniting documents and set limits for fellowship of like minded churches. The confessions deny that God creates evil or violates the free will of his creatures and is deterministic in that his purposes will all be accomplished and he is ultimately sovereign over all.

That is why you have serious high Calvinists who preach really good salvation sermons and warn that God's calling can be resisted to the point of him deciding that grace is going to be withdrawn and you have differing views on exactly what a man's "free will" truly means. Others only put forth Christ and him crucified and figure the Holy Spirt will draw the elect. They do not believe it is helpful to threaten, warn, or reason with men about coming to Christ whereas the former group believes that even the direct work of the Holy Spirit will work with man at the level of his conscious, rational mind. The confessions have room for both and I think it was done that way on purpose.

When you attack the confessions because they contain expansive language and pretend it's a theological contradiction just remember that that has no meaning to someone who has a carefully developed theology but still operates within the confession. They are allowed to do that whether you like a confession or not.

If they are uniting documents and they do not want to be accused of making God the author of sin then they should not include language that makes God the author of sin.

It seems that those "serious high Calvinists who preach really good salvation sermons" must ignore what the confession says or do not understand the contradiction found in them.

Remember it is the calvinists that insist that only a select group were pick out and that even they have to be given faith after they are saved.

It is not whether I agree with the confession or not it is whether the confession agrees with the bible or not.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you are saying that God determines all evil. He is the author of evil because even the calvinist free will is decreed by God. Not a biblical view but according to the calvinist view it has been determined that you believe it. Why God would want you to believe a false view, not sure but that's the way it is.

If God decree's all things then what things did He not decree?

Does God send some people a strong delusion so they will believe a lie ? 2 Thess 2:11-12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[DaveXR650]

If they are uniting documents and they do not want to be accused of making God the author of sin then they should not include language that makes God the author of sin.

You mean like in Chapter 3 point 1 of the WCF where it says God is not the author of sin? Brilliant point.

It seems that those "serious high Calvinists who preach really good salvation sermons" must ignore what the confession says or do not understand the contradiction found in them.

You just ignored my whole post and what I was trying to say. Either you are being willingly ignorant or you are incapable of really engaging what someone says.

Remember it is the calvinists that insist that only a select group were pick out and that even they have to be given faith after they are saved.

If you are talking about the "U" the whole idea was that the elect are not "select" in the way we do selection, based on merit or connection by birth, etc., and not that it's random chance. It says according to the counsel of God. With your system you still have the random chance problem because some are born in more unfortunate circumstances and places by chance, and you also have the merit problem because there must be some reason why some people on their own see the value of the gospel. So why would you complain about a Calvinist leaving it up to God's will and knowledge?

It is not whether I agree with the confession or not it is whether the confession agrees with the bible or not.

That's true for you but the problem is not that the confessions don't agree with scripture, they post multiple scriptures with each point. The problem is that you have an animosity that completely destroys your ability to think clearly and learn something from someone else. Unfortunately, it goes both ways. Wesley, who I really like, has a sermon on free grace (sermon 128) which is one of the most viscous attacks on Calvinism that I have read. It's not like him in other writings and it shows how animosity can cloud one's thinking. There is no sense engaging further on this I think.

 

[Silverhair]

You mean like in Chapter 3 point 1 of the WCF where it says God is not the author of sin? Brilliant point.

To say God decrees all things means all things or do you have a different meaning for "all things"

You just ignored my whole post and what I was trying to say. Either you are being willingly ignorant or you are incapable of really engaging what someone says.

You just do not like the answer. When the confession states one thing and they ignore it because they understand the logical outcome of the view and I point that out that is what bothers you. What do these words mean "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass " God decreed "all things", " unchangeably" those are not my words are they.
What I hear from calvinists is just accept the contradictions because we have.

If you are talking about the "U" the whole idea was that the elect are not "select" in the way we do selection, based on merit or connection by birth, etc., and not that it's random chance. It says according to the counsel of God. With your system you still have the random chance problem because some are born in more unfortunate circumstances and places by chance, and you also have the merit problem because there must be some reason why some people on their own see the value of the gospel. So why would you complain about a Calvinist leaving it up to God's will and knowledge?

The problem for the calvinist is that salvation is conditional, it depends upon ones faith. If a person trusts in God then God through His grace will save them. So it matters not where the person is God looks at the heart. I know I have mentioned it to you many times but God will use various means to draw people to Himself.

That's true for you but the problem is not that the confessions don't agree with scripture, they post multiple scriptures with each point. The problem is that you have an animosity that completely destroys your ability to think clearly and learn something from someone else. Unfortunately, it goes both ways. Wesley, who I really like, has a sermon on free grace (sermon 128) which is one of the most viscous attacks on Calvinism that I have read. It's not like him in other writings and it shows how animosity can cloud one's thinking. There is no sense engaging further on this I think.

But there is where you error. Whether I disagree with calvinism or not is not the problem, it is that calvinism disagrees with the inspired word of God. Calvinism is not the standard the bible is. Calvinism's foundation is not scripture but rather pagan philosophy brought into the church by agustine and carried forward by calvin. Check the history for yourself, as the bible shows the truth will set you free.

 

[Silverhair]

Does God send some people a strong delusion so they will believe a lie ? 2 Thess 2:11-12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Determining evil is different from sending a delusion.

 

[Brightfame52]

Determining evil is different from sending a delusion.

Thats your opinion, I see it all related. God obviously determined that people disobey and believe a lie, and then hold them accountable, that they be damned.

 

[Silverhair]

Thats your opinion, I see it all related. God obviously determined that people disobey and believe a lie, and then hold them accountable, that they be damned.

So your saying that God is the author of sin and evil.

 

[Brightfame52]

So your saying that God is the author of sin and evil.

Yes of course, His Purpose is !

 

[atpollard]

So you are saying that God determines all evil. He is the author of evil because even the calvinist free will is decreed by God. Not a biblical view but according to the calvinist view it has been determined that you believe it. Why God would want you to believe a false view, not sure but that's the way it is.

If God decree's all things then what things did He not decree?

I read what I wrote and the verses that I quoted and I never said what you ascribe to me.

If you want to discuss EVIL on a scriptural level, I pointed you to where God explains it in Genesis and Romans (what part did you not understand of what GOD said?)

If you want to discuss EVIL on a philosophical level, it does not exist as a real, physical quantity. Evil is like DARKNESS. There is no such thing as DARKNESS. Darkness is an imaginary construct representing the relative absence of LIGHT. In PHYSICS, what are the units for quantifying darkness? They do not exist. There are only units for quantifying the amount of LIGHT.

It is not for nothing that God is described as “Light” in scripture. God is the yardstick by which "good" is measured. The absence or deviation from God's standard is the artificial construct WE (humans) ascribe the value of "evil" to (just as we create the imaginary construct called "darkness" to describe the relative lack of LIGHT.)

So, NO … I do not claim or believe that God creates evil. Just the opposite. I believe that God defines GOOD and sets limits on how far from HIS CHARACTER any action of anyone or thing which He created may wander. Just as we saw in the story of Joseph in Genesis and just as Paul describes in Romans 1.

 

[Silverhair]

I read what I wrote and the verses that I quoted and I never said what you ascribe to me.

If you want to discuss EVIL on a scriptural level, I pointed you to where God explains it in Genesis and Romans (what part did you not understand of what GOD said?)

If you want to discuss EVIL on a philosophical level, it does not exist as a real, physical quantity. Evil is like DARKNESS. There is no such thing as DARKNESS. Darkness is an imaginary construct representing the relative absence of LIGHT. In PHYSICS, what are the units for quantifying darkness? They do not exist. There are only units for quantifying the amount of LIGHT.

It is not for nothing that God is described as “Light” in scripture. God is the yardstick by which "good" is measured. The absence or deviation from God's standard is the artificial construct WE (humans) ascribe the value of "evil" to (just as we create the imaginary construct called "darkness" to describe the relative lack of LIGHT.)

So, NO … I do not claim or believe that God creates evil. Just the opposite. I believe that God defines GOOD and sets limits on how far from HIS CHARACTER any action of anyone or thing which He created may wander. Just as we saw in the story of Joseph in Genesis and just as Paul describes in Romans 1.

You refer to the LBCF/WCF and it does say God decrees all thing which would have to include evil/sin.

Now I understand what the bible says and that is why I am not a cavinist. I also know that God does not cause sin/evil as He has given man a free will and man has chosen to sin. But man can, contrary to calvinism, freely respond to the drawing of God and trust in Him for his salvation.

Actually neither of the places you pointed to describe evil, what they do show is that man has a free will and chose to sin just as they can use their free will to respond to the various means that God uses to draw man to Him.

 

[Brightfame52]

You refer to the LBCF/WCF and it does say God decrees all thing which would have to include evil/sin.

Now I understand what the bible says and that is why I am not a cavinist. I also know that God does not cause sin/evil as He has given man a free will and man has chosen to sin. But man can, contrary to calvinism, freely respond to the drawing of God and trust in Him for his salvation.

Actually neither of the places you pointed to describe evil, what they do show is that man has a free will and chose to sin just as they can use their free will to respond to the various means that God uses to draw man to Him.

Mans will naturally is free only within the parameters of his sinful heart and nature, and so its not free to act from without its nature Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So everything we did by nature was according to the course of this world, and according to the prince of the power of the air, according to or in the lust of our flesh, and just fulfilling the desires of the flesh, and were only worthy of wrath, so our will isnt free in that regard.

 

[Silverhair]

Mans will naturally is free only within the parameters of his sinful heart and nature, and so its not free to act from without its nature Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So everything we did by nature was according to the course of this world, and according to the prince of the power of the air, according to or in the lust of our flesh, and just fulfilling the desires of the flesh, and were only worthy of wrath, so our will isnt free in that regard.

@Brightfame52 are you not a calvinist? Does God not determine all things?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52 are you not a calvinist? Does God not determine all things?

Already answered, so why did you evade my post ?

 

[Silverhair]

Already answered, so why did you evade my post ?

You refer to the LBCF/WCF and it does say God decrees all thing which would have to include evil/sin.

Now I understand what the bible says and that is why I am not a cavinist. I also know that God does not cause sin/evil as He has given man a free will and man has chosen to sin. But man can, contrary to calvinism, freely respond to the drawing of God and trust in Him for his salvation.

As long as you hold to your deterministic view anything you say is just what has been determined for you to say, no independent thought.

When you make a true statement you violate your determinism.

 

[atpollard]

You refer to the LBCF/WCF and it does say God decrees all thing which would have to include evil/sin.

Please show me where the LBCF claims that “God decrees all thing which would have to include evil/sin” … because I seem to remember the LBCF going to some effort to make a specific point that God does not “decree sin”. However, if you can quote verbatim from the LBCF claiming that God decrees sin, I will admit my error and join you in offering corrective criticism against that unbiblical claim. Until then, I stand by the position that you are misrepresenting what the LBCF claims on the subject.

 

[atpollard]

Now I understand what the bible says and that is why I am not a cavinist. I also know that God does not cause sin/evil as He has given man a free will and man has chosen to sin. But man can, contrary to calvinism, freely respond to the drawing of God and trust in Him for his salvation

You are not a Calvinist because of hubris and the spirit of Ezekiel 18:25. All men have free but fallen will and all men exercise that will according to John 3:19-20 … thus the NEED for John 6:65.