Calvinism and the Truth

I didn't say it did. I was pointing out that it doesn't contradict other biblical teaching that has been called Calvinism.

As I pointed out, this is incorrect. While you have made a partially true statement, it is not based on this verse. The reason your statement is only partially true is because salvation is offered to all; it, however, is only given to believers.

You started off well, and as soon as you reached "Therefore" you went off based. Paul is not saying that salvation is potentially for everyone. He is making an indicative statement that God is the Savior of all. Why not just read the text and accept what he says? He says nothing about potentiality.

Simply not true. Salvation is excludes all those who don't belive.

I don't have to take it up with him. I am taking it up with you because you are changing what he said. You are not in agreement with Paul. Paul mentions nothing about potential salvation.

 

Please be accurate. You should say "some Calvinists" believe that. Not all do.

By virtue of "we" and "us," the most we can say is that he died for those who believe. We cannot say more than that from this verse.

Others who can read and understand this verse clearly see it differently than you. This verse depends on what you think propitiation is.

But some would argue that the parallelism says that whatever Christ did for "us" he also did for "the whole world." That means that if he paid for the sins of "us" he also paid for the sins of the world. That would lead to universalism, since people do not go to hell if their sins have been paid for. That is the problem with your position.

That is not clear. It may ... but it may not.

I know of no Calvinist who would deny this.

 

In that same passage, Christ says that his sheep know his voice and follow him. They do not stop following him. People who stop following are not his sheep, and were never in his hand.

 

It is the father's will that none should perish.

'None' means NOT ONE OUT OF ALL! That does not speak of election, but Salvation! It is God's desire that ALL out of ALL be Saved, but the reality is that NOT all will be saved, because some (perhaps Many is better) do not believe.

Now does that limit Atonement? No Atonement is in accordance with the FATHER's DESIRE, that none should perish. So atonement for sin is for ALL sin in ALL times, so that ANY out of ALL can, by believing in God, receive everlasting life.

Will all do that? No, since the very first man to die without believing in God has already done so, we can be assured that God's desire has not come to fruition. Therefore any more talk of universal salvation is nothing more than fool's jabbering!

Now I said that Salvation is for everyone. That is not me speaking but God the Father who declared that his desire is that NONE out of All should perish. Therefore, Salvation IS intended to be for everyone. But then the decision is granted by God to man! "I have laid before you Life and Death, CHOOSE LIFE!"

I said that Paul, in giving God's desire, to Timothy says that Salvation is Potentially for everyone. And that is absolutely true because man's salvation is the POTENTIAL for ALL mankind, whosoever believeth! Potential means "the possibility". If every man who ever lived this natural life believed in God, Every man who ever lived this natural life would be saved! Man what Potential!

I said there are NO LIMITS to who can be saved, and that is a true statement. There is no limits such as "only the elect". Salvation is open to whosoever believeth in Him!

He said what Jesus said! Whosoever believeth can have salvation!

 

I would say comparing some one to JWs is a bash. How would you like to be compared to a cult?

If as you say Calvinists do not rightly divide the truth then why are the majority of conservative Bible scholars throughout history Calvinists? </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely not true, unless only calvinist are scholars in your eyes. Why are most churches, who preach born again salvation, today are NOT calvinist.

 

And that is the bottom line. Calvinist makes it all a cruel joke, a waste of time.

 

Would you mind supporting this point from factual evidence?

In addition, please tell us what you think the cruel joke is.

 

The churches I know of that are growing are Calvinistic, for hte most part. The whole modern missionary movement was Calvinistic in its inception, and the early church planting work in America was Calvinistic. Many of these mega churches are not preaching biblical salvation, which is why I asked about the citation. Clearly, anecdotal evidence won't suffice for such a sweeping generalization.

As for the work of hte Holy Spirit, I know of no Calvinistic church that doesn't think the gifts of the Spirit are not for today. Most, however, do believe that the sign gifts were for the first century, and in that, Scripture backs them up. Miracles, as well, are a thing of the past, limited ot hte time of Christ and the apostles as Scripture teaches. But that is another discussion, not for this thread.

I rather suspect that the comment about growing churches is misinformed, both due to wrongly defining growth and not having actually done a study.

 

I would also add, that, if we were going to use church growth as a measure of truth, then the Word of Faith Movement, which is very popular abroad outstrips many other groups. The point is that church growth is not a measure of truth. If that was so, then Catholicism would be true.

First, can you show that those that are "born again" do not fall away? Charles Finney was not a Calvinist, yet he himself admitted that most of his converts fell away. Just because you preach "born again" salvation from a non-Calvinist perspective and you have a large number of converts, that is no measure of the truth of your position. You entire argument is just an illogical appeal to the popular. Placed in another time, your argument becomes an argument for non-Protestantism.

Second, can you name one Calvinist church that does not preach justification by grace through faith? I know a few true hyper-Calvinist churches that have problems with evangelism, but then, I know some Arminian churches that preach you can't ever have real assurance of salvation as well and preach salvation by works. So there. Traditional Calvinists do not preach cheap grace, but neither do we go the other direction and preach cheap "pray this prayer and you have your fire insurance" salvation either. Which is worse? Preaching a gospel that saves and that has real results, or a gospel that lulls many into apostasy, for such is the doctrine of eternal security, the antinominan cousin of "perseverance of the saints."

Third, as I pointed out above. If we go by the majority view, then we should all believe in baptismal regeneration and sacramentalism and a host of other heresies. Such statements as the above quote are a-historical and a-contextual. Place them in a different time period, and you end up an argument for Rome's supremacy.

 

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. (It's God's Doctrine)

7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

(You'll know it is if you WANT AND DO GOD'S WILL BY HIS POWER, NOT YOUR OWN FICKLE "POSITIONS")

7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

(SPEAK OF CHRIST, NOT JOHNNY OR JAKE!!)


And ALL OF YOU ARGUING IN HERE, WASTING TIME FROM REALLY GETTING TO KNOW GOD, BUT INSTEAD BASH AND HACK EACH OTHER, WHEN BOTH SYSTEMS HAVE OBVIOUS SCRIPTURAL
(AS IN LEAVING VERSES OUT OR CHANGING THE CONTEXT OR NOT LOOKING AT ONE VERSE IN THE WHOLE OF THE LETTER)
OR LOGICAL FLAWS
(BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO CONCEDE THAT YOU CAN"T UNDERSTAND IT ALL OR THAT YOU MIGHT BE WRONG)

ARE TOO PREOCCUPIED WITH THINGS GOD DID NOT MAKE YOU TO UNDERSTAND OR GIVE YOU RIGHTS TO GRASP,

________HENCE THIS ENDLESS DEBATE OF GOD'S PLAN MADE FOR ALL MEN AND NOT ALL WILL BE A PART OF BUT HE KEEPS THOSE WHO ARE_________

GOD IS ON HIS SIDE, IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST GET BACK ON YOUR SIDE OF UNDERSTANDING FALLIBLE MEN AND BELEIVE, NOT WREST THE SCRIPTURES TO THE CONFUSION AND DAMNATION OF OTHERS.

I CAN'T HANDLE THIS ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


I MADE THIS POST FOR THIS REASON:

------JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED FOR THE SOULS OF THE LOST AND US TO GO YE AND MAKE IT A REALITY IN OTHERS, AND TO SEE THE SCRIPTURE IN IT'S OWN LIGHT BY THE ILLUMINATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT DUSTY OLD COUNCILS OF MEN-----

NOT FOR YOU THEOLGICAL PINHEADS TO ARGUE!!! BRETHERN GOODBYE! I WITHDRAW MY ASSOCIATION FROM THIS FORUM FOR GOOD!

I'm going to do HIS will, by His Grace and His Power!

In the love of Christ and for the sake of the gospel,

Bro. Brandon

 

Thanks for letting us know, We would have been worried at your whereabouts if you had not told us.

 

Would you mind supporting this point from factual evidence?

In addition, please tell us what you think the cruel joke is. </font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Larry, Do you think that even half the baptist or protestant churches are calvinist?! Less then 10 or 20 percent I am willing to say. Where are all the calvinist churches. My pastor is a calvinist but most of the people in our church aren't. So there is that too consider too.

 

I have no idea. Historically, Baptist churches have been predominantly Calvinist by their doctrine. That may or may not be today. I hardly think the number is 10-20%. It is likely far greater than that. But we have to realize that not every place that calls itself "church" is actually a church. And what the people in teh church believe is not at issue. What does the doctrinal statement of hte church say?

 

Election and Salvation:

Confession of Faith: German Baptists-- circa 1847.

"We believe that from eternity it was the free pleasure of God not guided by anything outside of Himself, His determined intention, to redeem sinners.

To this end, just as since before the foundation of the world out of unconditional, compassionate love it was decided within the Godhead that Jehovah, the Anointed One, by becoming human and his death should be the Redeemer, so those of the lost human race to whom in the course of time redemmption would be applied were also chosen by the Father, their names recorded in heaven, they themselves given into the hands of the Redeemer as his people, as the sheep of His flock, for whom he would lay down His life, as His heritage, as the spoils of His death throes and as His Bride.

Eternal life in Christ was granted to them, and at the same time all the means were appointed which would bring them to faith in Christ, to holiness and eventually to eternal blessedness.

This decree of God is unchangeable and eternally fixed, so that those whom it concerns, the elect, may not be snatched out of the hands of Christ; rather they remain kept through God's power in faith and love for Christ, until they become co-heirs of His glory."

Some interesting thoughts from the 19th cent.

His Bride is still out there--undefiled.

Selah,

Bro. James