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Calvinism and Unbelieving Loved Ones

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SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
canadyjd said:
What harm is caused by the doctrines of grace?
Click to expand...

I like the way the Reformed/Calvinist try to "sugar-coat" their doctrines, so as to give the impression, that they are based on the Teachings of the Holy Bible!

"doctrines of grace"? According to some English dictionaries, the word "grace" can mean, "kind, pleasent", which no doubt is Who the God of the Holy Bible is. However, lets take a couple of the Five points, which go much together, the "U and L". Exactly HOW does these two as defined by Reformed/Calvinist, mean in ANY way, to the hell-bound, lost sinner, that it is because of God's GRACE, that's right, God's KINDNESS, that Jesus Christ did NOT "choose you for salvation", or did He "die for your sins" on the cross??? He is KIND to you, because He has made sure that YOU cannot ever be saved??? THIS, is how the God of the Holy Bible is taught by warped, anti-Bible, Reformed/Calvinist, "theology"!!!

The Bible VERY clearly says in the Words of God Incarnate Himself, the Highest Authority, "God LOVES THE HUMAN RACE VERY MUCH, that He sent His One and Only Son, to Die on the cross for this COMPLETE fallen race, that, WHOSOEVER, were to believe in Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, should not be eternally lost, but will live in heaven FOREVER". My version of John 3:16.

GLORY BE TO THE TRULY WONDERFUL SAVIOUR!!! What a GREAT and EXCITING Gospel (GOOD NEWS) Message indeed!!! THIS, my friends, IS the Heart of Almighty God!!!

But, then, we have the Reformed/Calvinist, who, MOAN about God's salvation, like the Prophet Jonah, who COMPLAINED to God, "This change of plans greatly upset Jonah (a Calvinist), and he became very angry. So he complained (as do the Reformed/Calvinist) to the Lord about it: “Didn’t I say before I left home that you would do this, Lord? That is why I ran away to Tarshish! I knew that you are a merciful and compassionate God (Who wants to forgive and save the whole world), slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love (towards the human race). You are eager to turn back from destroying people (the whole world). Just kill me now, Lord! I’d rather be dead than alive if what I predicted will not happen.(because what You did is NOT my "theology")" (Jonah 4:1-3)
 
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SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Craig Hooker said:
"Whosoever" is not in the original Greek. It's present tense and actually means believing ones
Click to expand...

really, this is your "theology" and NOT what the Greek says! Here is what John Calvin, the person that "Calvinists" pretend to follow, said:

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found inthe world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

There you have it!
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Caricatures, Strawmen,and emotional rants born out of frustration cannot lead to truth.
Scripture is the only path given by God.
The confessional churches present the truth that strawmen cannot defeat.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
InTheLight said:
It's right there in the second sentence of the OP. You people can read, no?



Why should Christians have a burden for the lost, pray endless prayers years after years for loved ones to repent and believe and become Christians if all of their efforts are wasted because God had not chosen them for salvation?

Imagine a Calvinist praying to God for their lost mother.

"Dear God, I pray that you have not condemned my mother to an eternity in Hell. I pray that it was your will before the world was created to select my mother for salvation. I hope that all my witnessing and living a Christ-like life is not empty when it comes to my mom's salvation. Please Lord, I pray that her name had been written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world and no matter what I do, she will be saved. I know I should have spoken up the other day when she asked about You, but, well, you know if she's saved or not so it really doesn't matter what I do. The outcome for her has been predetermined."
Click to expand...
The OP has asked the thread not be derailed by discussion or debate about theology. I will honor his request.

peace to you
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
I like the way the Reformed/Calvinist try to "sugar-coat" their doctrines, so as to give the impression, that they are based on the Teachings of the Holy Bible!

"doctrines of grace"? According to some English dictionaries, the word "grace" can mean, "kind, pleasent", which no doubt is Who the God of the Holy Bible is. However, lets take a couple of the Five points, which go much together, the "U and L". Exactly HOW does these two as defined by Reformed/Calvinist, mean in ANY way, to the hell-bound, lost sinner, that it is because of God's GRACE, that's right, God's KINDNESS, that Jesus Christ did NOT "choose you for salvation", or did He "die for your sins" on the cross??? He is KIND to you, because He has made sure that YOU cannot ever be saved??? THIS, is how the God of the Holy Bible is taught by warped, anti-Bible, Reformed/Calvinist, "theology"!!!

The Bible VERY clearly says in the Words of God Incarnate Himself, the Highest Authority, "God LOVES THE HUMAN RACE VERY MUCH, that He sent His One and Only Son, to Die on the cross for this COMPLETE fallen race, that, WHOSOEVER, were to believe in Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, should not be eternally lost, but will live in heaven FOREVER". My version of John 3:16.

GLORY BE TO THE TRULY WONDERFUL SAVIOUR!!! What a GREAT and EXCITING Gospel (GOOD NEWS) Message indeed!!! THIS, my friends, IS the Heart of Almighty God!!!

But, then, we have the Reformed/Calvinist, who, MOAN about God's salvation, like the Prophet Jonah, who COMPLAINED to God, "This change of plans greatly upset Jonah (a Calvinist), and he became very angry. So he complained (as do the Reformed/Calvinist) to the Lord about it: “Didn’t I say before I left home that you would do this, Lord? That is why I ran away to Tarshish! I knew that you are a merciful and compassionate God (Who wants to forgive and save the whole world), slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love (towards the human race). You are eager to turn back from destroying people (the whole world). Just kill me now, Lord! I’d rather be dead than alive if what I predicted will not happen.(because what You did is NOT my "theology")" (Jonah 4:1-3)
Click to expand...
The OP has requested the thread not be derailed by discussion or debate of theology. I will honor his request.

peace to you
 
Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Craig Hooker said:
Two things. Grace Biblically simply means unmerited favor.
Click to expand...
I agree, Craig.

To me, that is what this whole "Calvinism" vs "Arminianism" discussion is about...
Do man's actions, beliefs, efforts, etc. merit God's favor, or is He uninfluenced by our efforts to gain it?
Craig Hooker said:
"Whosoever" is not in the original Greek. It's present tense and actually means believing ones.
Click to expand...
Again I agree.
I see the word used in places like John 3:16 and many others as being " πιστεύω", transliterated as "pisteuō" and meaning:

  1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
    1. of the thing believed
    2. to credit, have confidence
  2. in a moral or religious reference
    1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

    2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

    3. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
  3. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
    1. to be intrusted with a thing

I.E. "those that believe".
 
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A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
I like the way the Reformed/Calvinist try to "sugar-coat" their doctrines, so as to give the impression, that they are based on the Teachings of the Holy Bible!

"doctrines of grace"? According to some English dictionaries, the word "grace" can mean, "kind, pleasent", which no doubt is Who the God of the Holy Bible is. However, lets take a couple of the Five points, which go much together, the "U and L". Exactly HOW does these two as defined by Reformed/Calvinist, mean in ANY way, to the hell-bound, lost sinner, that it is because of God's GRACE, that's right, God's KINDNESS, that Jesus Christ did NOT "choose you for salvation", or did He "die for your sins" on the cross??? He is KIND to you, because He has made sure that YOU cannot ever be saved??? THIS, is how the God of the Holy Bible is taught by warped, anti-Bible, Reformed/Calvinist, "theology"!!!

The Bible VERY clearly says in the Words of God Incarnate Himself, the Highest Authority, "God LOVES THE HUMAN RACE VERY MUCH, that He sent His One and Only Son, to Die on the cross for this COMPLETE fallen race, that, WHOSOEVER, were to believe in Jesus Christ as their personal saviour, should not be eternally lost, but will live in heaven FOREVER". My version of John 3:16.

GLORY BE TO THE TRULY WONDERFUL SAVIOUR!!! What a GREAT and EXCITING Gospel (GOOD NEWS) Message indeed!!! THIS, my friends, IS the Heart of Almighty God!!!

But, then, we have the Reformed/Calvinist, who, MOAN about God's salvation, like the Prophet Jonah, who COMPLAINED to God, "This change of plans greatly upset Jonah (a Calvinist), and he became very angry. So he complained (as do the Reformed/Calvinist) to the Lord about it: “Didn’t I say before I left home that you would do this, Lord? That is why I ran away to Tarshish! I knew that you are a merciful and compassionate God (Who wants to forgive and save the whole world), slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love (towards the human race). You are eager to turn back from destroying people (the whole world). Just kill me now, Lord! I’d rather be dead than alive if what I predicted will not happen.(because what You did is NOT my "theology")" (Jonah 4:1-3)
Click to expand...
Grace = Unmerited favor
Grace = God giving you what you do not deserve.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Steven Yeadon said:
As someone whose friends and loved ones are overwhelmingly unbelievers, Calvinism seems downright cruel to the redeemed. So all the evangelizing and tears for years about loved ones going to hell are pointless, because God chose different to me from eternity.

I came to the faith four years ago, and Calvinism seems to me to only make sense to Christian families that for generations are born "chosen." It seems difficult to disentangle Calvinism from Christendom. I could be wrong, I am just being honest, because I could not imagine people from unbelieving backgrounds embracing Calvinism, unless it was the only theology presented to them when they came to saving faith.

I speak from wounding personal experience. No malice to anyone intended.

I reserve the right as the OP to have this thread closed and erased by the mods if things go off the rails. I know most of you, so that should not be a problem, but this is the internet, and I am being vulnerable.
Click to expand...
Your answer is found here. Read it and decide if you think God is cruel.
Romans 9:6-24 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
canadyjd said:
After I was first saved, we took an inter church trip on our buses to an event. On the way home, we picked up a hitchhiker.
I witnessed to the young man, a professing atheist, for almost two hours on the way back, but he could not be moved to salvation.
The next day, I spoke with my pastor, explaining how I felt like a failure in “soul winning”.
My pastor said, “Well, if you didn’t think it was all about you, you wouldn’t be feeling so bad right now.”
We are privileged to have a role in salvation. We present the gospel, we pray, we encourage, we trust God to show mercy in His wisdom.
I don’t see God choosing as being “cruel”. It gives me great comfort to know it isn’t up to me.
peace to you
Click to expand...
Thanks for your revealing post. No need to feel like we did not do our part well enough, God either chose or did not choose those to which Calvinists witness. Never mind Matthew 23:13 and the impact witnesses may have on entering the kingdom.
It is true, some have hardened their hearts such that they cannot understand the gospel, but as for the others, sometimes it takes cultivating, planting, watering, repetitively before the person comes to their senses.
 
C

Craig Hooker

New Member
Dave G said:
I agree, Craig.

To me, that is what this whole "Calvinism" vs "Arminianism" discussion is about...
Do man's actions, beliefs, efforts, etc. merit God's favor, or is He uninfluenced by our efforts to gain it?

Again I agree.
I see the word used in places like John 3:16 and many others as being " πιστεύω", transliterated as "pisteuō" and meaning:

  1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
    1. of the thing believed
    2. to credit, have confidence
  2. in a moral or religious reference
    1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

    2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

    3. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
  3. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
    1. to be intrusted with a thing

I.E. "those that believe".
Click to expand...

Great post Dave. Nice to meet you.
 
C

Craig Hooker

New Member
SavedByGrace said:
really, this is your "theology" and NOT what the Greek says! Here is what John Calvin, the person that "Calvinists" pretend to follow, said:

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found inthe world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

There you have it!
Click to expand...

Again, the term "whosoever" is not present in the Greek. Quoting Calvin will not change that fact.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Craig Hooker said:
Again, the term "whosoever" is not present in the Greek. Quoting Calvin will not change that fact.
Click to expand...

The Greek has it "πᾶς", which also has the meaning "totality", as in Acts 2:21, "“And it shall be that everyone who shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” The KJV is a Reformed version of the Bible, and its translators saw it fit to render the Greek "whosoever" in John 3:16, which is the teaching of the Bible! If, as it does in John 3:16, the Greek τον κοσμον, is, the entire human race, then it is expected that the πᾶς is rightly rendered as "whosoever" as the invitation is open to the entire human race! There is NO objection in the Greek, contextually, to readering πᾶς by WHOSOEVER, only to the Reformed/Calvinist, for theological purposes!
 
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