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Calvinism Critiqued by a Former Calvinist

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Iconoclast, I am not a calvinist and I cherish the works of John Owen.

Holiness, Communion with God, etc...

HankD

Hank,
Owen is great on sin and temptation,mortification, and sanctification.
The Hebrews commentary is classic....you can get alot free online...or all on a cd now...it is amazing...
Gina started a thread on the grace and duty of being spiritually minded a few weeks ago...we need to get back to that! It is good for all who name the name of Christ.:thumbsup:
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
QF.....why do you flirt with disaster....NT Wright is one of the advocates of the NPP heresy.....

why not read proven men...not those who go astray?
Any student of the Word must take NT WRight seriously. He is an excellent scholar that has brought many things to light from 2nd temple literature that were beforehand incorrect in modern thought. Plus, his new perspective is not that big of a departure as others. All I know is, his Christian origins series are amazing and he is a fine scholar. NT & the people of God as well as Jesus and the Victory of God are by far some of the best books written in the 90's... and many of your SBC scholars will admit as much.

Plus... those of us in research fields have to read all men, even "those who go astray". There is nothing wrong w/ challenging your mind as well as your views by reading views not consistent w/ your own. You will always learn something (directly or indirectly).
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Any student of the Word must take NT WRight seriously. He is an excellent scholar that has brought many things to light from 2nd temple literature that were beforehand incorrect in modern thought. Plus, his new perspective is not that big of a departure as others. All I know is, his Christian origins series are amazing and he is a fine scholar. NT & the people of God as well as Jesus and the Victory of God are by far some of the best books written in the 90's... and many of your SBC scholars will admit as much.

Plus... those of us in research fields have to read all men, even "those who go astray". There is nothing wrong w/ challenging your mind as well as your views by reading views not consistent w/ your own. You will always learn something (directly or indirectly).

Gt...
I am glad God has some who intercept some of these "scholars " who undermine the word of God......while you can learn by reading error...it seems the better way to go to read proven men before going with vain speculation;
17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 19For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

You might be equipped to sort through someone like Him and sift out some ideas....many are not really able to do so.

So, what is being taught by those who advocate the New Perspective on Paul? In a nutshell, they are suggesting that the apostle Paul has been seriously misunderstood, at least since the time of Augustine and the Pelagian controversy, but even more since the time of Luther and the Protestant Reformation. They claim first-century Judaism has also been misinterpreted and misconstrued by New Testament scholars for hundreds and hundreds of years, and therefore the church's understanding of what Paul was teaching in Romans and Galatians has been seriously flawed at least since the time of Augustine.

I think you'll agree that's a pretty audacious claim. Here are four important ways they say Paul has been misunderstood:

First, regarding first-century Judaism, the New Perspective on Paul claims that the Judaism of Paul's day was not really a religion of self-righteousness where salvation depended on human works and human merit. So we've misunderstood Paul because we have misunderstood what he was up against. The Pharisees weren't legalists after all, it turns out. But they have been misunderstood by biased exegetes who erred because they superimposed Augustine's conflict with Pelagius and Luther's conflict with Roman Catholicism onto their reading of Paul's conflict with the Judaizers.

Instead, according to the New Perspective, there was a strong emphasis on divine grace in the Judaism of Paul's time, and the Pharisees were not really guilty of teaching salvation by human merit. This is the one basic point upon which Sanders, Dunn, and Wright are all in full agreement. They base that claim primarily on their study of extrabiblical rabbinical sources, and they treat the matter as if it were settled in the world of New Testament scholarship—even though it seems to me that there are still plenty of weighty New Testament scholars who would strongly disagree with them. But that's the starting point of their view: first-century Judaism was not legalistic after all. For centuries, Christians have simply misunderstood what the Pharisees taught.

Second, regarding the apostle Paul, the New Perspectivists are very keen to absolve Paul from the charge of anti-semitism—and therefore they deny that he had any serious or significant theological disagreement with the Jewish leaders of his time. Obviously, if the religion of the Pharisees was a religion of grace and not human merit, then Paul would have had no fundamental disagreement with them on the doctrine of salvation.

But Paul's real controversy with the Jewish leaders, we are told, had to do with the way they treated Gentiles. His conflict with the Judaizers and the Pharisees had to do more with racial and cultural differences than with any kind of soteriological debate. They tell us that Paul's great concern actually was for racial harmony and diversity in the covenant community. So the only significant complaint Paul had with the Pharisees and the Judaizers was their racial and cultural exclusivity.

Third, regarding the gospel, the New Perspective on Paul claims that the gospel is a message about the Lordship of Christ, period. It is the declaration that Christ, through His death and resurrection, has been shown by God to be Lord of creation and king of the cosmos. We would agree that this truth is an essential feature of the New Testament gospel, of course. But we would not agree with advocates of the New Perspective when they say the gospel is therefore not really a message about personal and individual redemption from the guilt and condemnation of sin.

To quote Tom Wright (p. 45 of What St. Paul Really Said), "[The gospel] is not . . . a system of how people get saved." He writes, "The announcement of the gospel results in people being saved. . . . But 'the gospel' itself, strictly speaking, is the narrative proclamation of King Jesus." "[The gospel is] the announcement of a royal victory" (p. 47).

[By the way, I'll quote Tom Wright several times in this hour, and I'll try to remember always to give page numbers. Almost every quote I'll cite comes from this book, What St. Paul Really Said. So we can save some time if I just give you page numbers.]

Ultimately, the New Perspective divests the gospel of—or downplays—every significant aspect of soteriology
 
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Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It's my anology. It has nothing to do with it. Again, my anology that I was using to demonstate a point that was asked by me. You don't determine what I mean by my anology. It has nothing to do with why because I wasn't discussing why.

I wasn't using it to support Calvinism but using it to support why we choose the things we choose. Change dirt to something else if that helps you understand it better. Make it an ugly box and has a billion dollars in side. you reject it because you think it's an ugly box, but really it's not. Again, that was NOT my point. My point was simply to show desires and the connection to our choices, not why we have certain desires or anything else. I understand what you are saying, but I wasn't trying to illustrate that.
You were attempting to explain your point of view to others by using an analogy. The analogy didn't explain your point of view to others, because it's flawed.

I'm happy it works for you. Just letting you know why it won't work for anyone else.
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Gt...
I am glad God has some who intercept some of these "scholars " who undermine the word of God......while you can learn by reading error...it seems the better way to go to read proven men before going with vain speculation;


You might be equipped to sort through someone like Him and sift out some ideas....many are not really able to do so.
I disagree about the better way to go. If people only read people they agree w/, they never develop critical thinking skills and they lead to indoctrination (case and point most of your IFB churches).

Also NT Wright is definitely not "vain speculation." I don't know where you info came from or who you quoted above, but I don't think it is a fair representation of Wright's NPP. Nevertheless, he is solid on many other areas and an extremely gifted writer. Furthermore, I would not say he has undermined the WoG only that he has challenged an interpretation (really a historical perspective) that has been held and unchallenged for years. Scholarship is to welcome this kind of research. He has shown us the much larger world of 2nd temple Judaism, a world that was 10x's bigger and more diverse than we really understood.

Lastly, most of your so called proven men read so called error. If they can do it, shouldn't you?
 

mandym

New Member
From what I have read regarding the "new perspective of Paul", I would say the charge of (((heresy))) is completely unfounded.

I do as well. Although Wright completely misrepresents the "traditional" view of Romans. When you add what he claims to the the traditional view with his view then you get reality. Bit to single one view or the other out is false. And I know no one who does that except Wright and those who follow is misrepresentation.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From what I have read regarding the "new perspective of Paul", I would say the charge of (((heresy))) is completely unfounded.

I would say you are off as usual.This has split churches and denies scriptural salvation. Have you ever listened to the Auburn Avenue Sermons?
If not....you will not know what is at issue.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
QF.....why do you flirt with disaster....NT Wright is one of the advocates of the NPP heresy.....

why not read proven men...not those who go astray?

Well Icon, you already think I flirt with disaster and heresy, so one more little tidbit won't matter much. I like his "writing style". As opposed to you, I don't mind reading people who don't always take the "as you might say" the orthodox approach to things. I like to see how people think and analyze things differently. I do realize the NPP is (can be) and extremely broad interpretive path, NT seems pretty solid guy (overall) even though he is highly "reformed". In reality, any of us who disagree theologically are in fact DPP (different perspectives on Paul). :)
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Any student of the Word must take NT WRight seriously. He is an excellent scholar that has brought many things to light from 2nd temple literature that were beforehand incorrect in modern thought. Plus, his new perspective is not that big of a departure as others. All I know is, his Christian origins series are amazing and he is a fine scholar. NT & the people of God as well as Jesus and the Victory of God are by far some of the best books written in the 90's... and many of your SBC scholars will admit as much.

Plus... those of us in research fields have to read all men, even "those who go astray". There is nothing wrong w/ challenging your mind as well as your views by reading views not consistent w/ your own. You will always learn something (directly or indirectly).

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

GK, I don't do this often. :)
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hank,
Owen is great on sin and temptation,mortification, and sanctification.
The Hebrews commentary is classic....you can get alot free online...or all on a cd now...it is amazing...
Gina started a thread on the grace and duty of being spiritually minded a few weeks ago...we need to get back to that! It is good for all who name the name of Christ.:thumbsup:
I agree, we need to put these debates that divide us into the background.

I also thoroughly enjoy RC Sproul.

Thanks
HankD
 

humblethinker

Active Member
Who made you a sinner? Don't you believe from the moment of conception you were a sinner? Was this your doing?

A proper analogy would be a man programming a robot so that it can only choose A. Then you offer the robot a choice of A or B. The robot can only choose A, because that is how it was programmed.

Now, who is the cause of why the robot cannot choose B? Is it the robot, or the programmer?

Or something like this maybe?
 
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