Calvinism Denies Scripture: "All" = Some

[JustChristian]

We aren't discussing the interpretation of the verse, but the word 'all'. The question on my verse is, is the word 'all' all inclusive? The answer is no, therefore all does not necessarily mean all inclusive.

Interpreting the verse does interpret the word "all." Woprds need to be interpreted in context.

 

[Rippon]

BW : You show contempt for God by ascribing to fellow Christians "man-worship" . You show irreverence toward the sacred . Yes , you engage in blasphemy . It's very sinful . Stop your profanity .

 

[Bro. Williams]

BW : You show contempt for God by ascribing to fellow Christians "man-worship" . You show irreverence toward the sacred . Yes , you engage in blasphemy . It's very sinful . Stop your profanity .

Rip, the Bible teaches us to call things as they are. We are to correct one another when needed. If you cannot handle that fact, that doesn't make it wrong or incorrect, just tough for you.

Give me some verses to show me it is sinful to correct a brother, or that it is sinful to reprove or rebuke a brother.

Also, is there a verse that states that blasphemy is considered towards man, or just toward God?

 

[Rippon]

BW : What you regard as " Calling things as they are" is just plain bogus . I am not engaged in "manworship" of Calvin or Boice or any other person . For you to have said it even once in a single post would have been bad enough . But you have repeated that claptrap several times . Moderators have had to delete your obnoxious remarks . I resent your impious attitude when you feign being a brother who wants to offer a sincere rebuke . Do you own a mirror ? Do you have a conscience left ? Do you pause even momentarily to contemplate why you have had a record number of deletions from your threads since you came onto the BB ? Might it ever occur to you that Y-O-U are the problem ?

 

[Bro. Williams]

BW : What you regard as " Calling things as they are" is just plain bogus . I am not engaged in "manworship" of Calvin or Boice or any other person . For you to have said it even once in a single post would have been bad enough . But you have repeated that claptrap several times . Moderators have had to delete your obnoxious remarks . I resent your impious attitude when you feign being a brother who wants to offer a sincere rebuke . Do you own a mirror ? Do you have a conscience left ? Do you pause even momentarily to contemplate why you have had a record number of deletions from your threads since you came onto the BB ? Might it ever occur to you that Y-O-U are the problem ?

Resent away.

Mods are not my righteousnous, the Lord is. If they disagree, they have the right to delete, it is there board and rules.

Take or leave the rebuke, your choice. Still, you had it coming.

You know nothing of my attitude.

We all have conscience, they can be seared, not removed.

There are a couple of mirrors in my house, they are useful to keep my beard trimmed and teeth brushed.

I have the record for deletions? Are you serious!!?? Where can I find that info, serisouly?

Who is Y-O-U? What is the problem with him? I don't think I have seen that name used on here before, but I will check the members listings and block him if he continues being a problem.

 

[Bismarck]

What were they doing at his Baptism... according to you??

When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
Luke 7:29-30​

Thus, although "all" Judea came to John, including the Pharisees, some were NOT Baptized.

This would seem to support the Calvinistic "particular" interpretation.

However, the NASB — the most literal translation commonly available — translates Matt 3:5-7 (the origin of this side debate here) as:

5 Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan;
6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"​

Thus, according to the NASB, the verb "they were being baptized" in verse 6 is in the imperfect tense, signifying continuing action, NOT completed action. Thus, Scripture does say that all went to John, but it does not say that all were Baptized.

Indeed, according to Strong's Concordance, the verb Baptizo in verse 6 is conjugated in the "Imperfect Passive Indicative" tense (G05712). Thus, the proper translation is that of the NASB, "they were being Baptized".


CONCLUSIONS:

(1) Not all were Baptized by John (Luke 7:29-30)

(2) Scripture doesn't claim otherwise (Matt 3:6 = "passive imperfect" tense)

(3) If you want to really argue Doctrine, you really must delve into these minutiae (which really aren't so minute)

(4) I humbly suggest that all of us use the NASB for Scriptural citations

 

[MB]

The only reason the men will argue over the words "all" and "world" is because they refuse to admit they no scriptural support for particular election. So by presenting these words for scrutiny they attempt to hide the fact they have no scriptural support for God being particular in who He saves. Calvinism will claim that God is no respector of men yet turn around and make it seem that He is.
Particular election doesn't stand according to scripture no matter what you may think of the words "All and World" For instance John said.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
What part of the "whole world" would you like to argue isn't included?

Why not just prove with scripture the idea of Particular election?
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

The only reason the men will argue over the words "all" and "world" is because they refuse to admit they no scriptural support for particular election. So by presenting these words for scrutiny they attempt to hide the fact they have no scriptural support for God being particular in who He saves. Calvinism will claim that God is no respector of men yet turn around and make it seem that He is.
Particular election doesn't stand according to scripture no matter what you may think of the words "All and World" For instance John said.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
What part of the "whole world" would you like to argue isn't included?

Why not just prove with scripture the idea of Particular election?
MB

The tell of two shepherds.

4 This is what the LORD my God says: "Pasture the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, 'Praise the LORD, I am rich!' Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land," declares the LORD. "I will hand everyone over to his neighbor and his king. They will oppress the land, and I will not rescue them from their hands."

Notice that the Good Shepherd look at particular ONE flock.
Notice also that the flock he CHOSE also detested Him.

7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."


More insight can be found in...

Isaiah 40

10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

and...

Jeremiah 23
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

NOTICE ....ALL THE NATIONS Does all mean all...or what?


12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! (This last line is sarcasm for the pay in verse 12 is priceless) So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

>>NOTE now comes the 2nd shepherd. Notice that the LORD will raise up this shepherd as well. Notice he will eat...or seek to devour the choice sheep..Gods elect.

15 Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs.

17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd,
who deserts the flock!
May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
May his arm be completely withered,
his right eye totally blinded!"

 

[robycop3]

Can anyone **PROVE** that there is anyone alive now to whom salvation is not a possibility?

 

[Jarthur001]

Can anyone **PROVE** that there is anyone alive now to whom salvation is not a possibility?

This would be playing God, and would be blaspheming. Salvation from the beginning in the election by God and through propitiation by Christ blood toward the Father, and justification because of the Blood by God the Father toward the believer of Christ ends in the imputation of righteousness to the believer are ALL the acts of the Godhead. The pure sanctification to come in the end that becomes glorification is the work of God.

 

[MB]

Hi Jay,

The tell of two shepherds.



>>NOTE now comes the 2nd shepherd. Notice that the LORD will raise up this shepherd as well. Notice he will eat...or seek to devour the choice sheep..Gods elect.

It isn't that I don't respect your attempt to prove particular election. I do. However we must consider all of scripture other wise we wind up having to toss something out. Certainly it would seem that election was particular in the beginning because God chose only the Jews. Yet at the same time we have to think of the Ninevehites in Jonah chapter 3 for instance. They weren't elect Yet they believed in God when Jonah preached. According to Calvinism if a man isn't elect He can't even hear the things of God. He can't understand or perceive. The Jews were elect but this election in no way insured there Salvation. Nor did election restrict anyone else other than Jews from the possibilities of Salvation. The Jews were chosen before the foundation of the world and so were the Gentiles in 1st Jn 2:2. God first chose all the descendants of Jacob with out being particular. Then He chose all the rest of humanity with out being particular. He just chose that these elections would happen in different times.
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Jay,

Hello MB and thank you for the good spirit.

It isn't that I don't respect your attempt to prove particular election.

Thanks again. The very nation of election, be it for salvation or a apple carries with it the focus of a particular choice. We do not vote for mayor in order to have all be mayor. We cast our vote on one in particular. This means one other or even more will be past over and will not be our pick for mayor. No matter what your thoughts are on Gods election, you must agree that the nature of election is that of an particular choice.

However we must consider all of scripture other wise we wind up having to toss something out. Certainly it would seem that election was particular in the beginning because God chose only the Jews.

I would agree in both cases. The is no other ground to stand on but to admit that God chose ONE nation over many others to bless.

Yet at the same time we have to think of the Ninevehites in Jonah chapter 3 for instance. They weren't elect Yet they believed in God when Jonah preached. According to Calvinism if a man isn't elect He can't even hear the things of God. He can't understand or perceive.

I would disagree. The Ninevehites were not the chosen nation. Yet think with me for a moment. Who had the idea to go tell these people? Was it not Gods choice? This is but how election works to this day.

The Jews were elect but this election in no way insured there Salvation.

Indeed you are right. Election for the Jews was a choice to bless them above all other nations. Through them all the other nations would be blessed in the coming of Christ. God also blessed them with the LAW and the Bible.

Nor did election restrict anyone else other than Jews from the possibilities of Salvation

.
This still holds true today. Election never stops anyone from Salvation, that wants to be saved. All Calvinist hold to this truth.

The Jews were chosen before the foundation of the world and so were the Gentiles in 1st Jn 2:2. God first chose all the descendants of Jacob with out being particular.

God chose many times before Jacob.

Then He chose all the rest of humanity with out being particular.

If God chose all of mankind, then the very nature in that choice is to save. So, Romans 8 with your view would lead to all people being predestinated to be BORN in God's family among the other their brethren.(8:29) Notice this happens to all that are called.(8:28) In your view this would include all mankind, would it not?
Romans 8:28-29
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

 

[Steven2006]

The word 'all' is not always all inclusive, as we might think it is.
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered
was the whole world counted and registered?

I don't see the conflict you see. It says all "should", it doesn't say all "will". All still means all.

John 1: 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe

Did all beleive?

Once again the key word is "Might". All still means all, but it says that they might believe, not will believe.

2Peter 3:
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Are there people perishing, going to hell, does everyone repent and recieve eternal life?

As before since it says "should " not will, it doesn't take away from the meaning of "all". The verse is saying just what it says." All should", it does not say all will.


Our government says all should pay taxes. But we know that all don't do that. Do we assume then that the government really doesn't mean all, or just that some choose not to? No, of course not, the meaning is clear. They all should do it but some just don't do as they should, by their own choosing.

 

[MB]

Hello MB and thank you for the good spirit.


Thanks again. The very nation of election, be it for salvation or a apple carries with it the focus of a particular choice. We do not vote for mayor in order to have all be mayor. We cast our vote on one in particular. This means one other or even more will be past over and will not be our pick for mayor. No matter what your thoughts are on Gods election, you must agree that the nature of election is that of an particular choice.

The Jews were chosen as a people for which the messiah would come through. This wasn't an election for Salvation though particular it was. Actually some Jews would tell you that it was a curse. Salvation can't be had with out election even though the election it self doesn't insure Salvation. Not all true Jews will be saved and the only reason is there rejection of Christ.
James said we must submit,
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Submission is saying OK Lord do with me what you will. It's when we give up on our rebellion.

I would agree in both cases. The is no other ground to stand on but to admit that God chose ONE nation over many others to bless.


I would disagree. The Ninevehites were not the chosen nation. Yet think with me for a moment. Who had the idea to go tell these people? Was it not Gods choice? This is but how election works to this day.

Then you must agree that election was in the granting of repentance to the Gentiles.
as in,
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
These men didn't understand there election as particular but as a choosing of all the Gentiles. They didn't just refer to themselves but included the Gentile brothers as well. More importantly though Paul wrote about their exclamations he didn't offer corrections either.

Indeed you are right. Election for the Jews was a choice to bless them above all other nations. Through them all the other nations would be blessed in the coming of Christ. God also blessed them with the LAW and the Bible.

.

This still holds true today. Election never stops anyone from Salvation, that wants to be saved. All Calvinist hold to this truth.

Election doesn't stop them but Total depravity does. It stops them in the claimed inability of man to respond before being made new.
God chose many times before Jacob. Each time He chose a believer.
None of those chosen were for Salvation. For instance Jacob already believed in God as did his father and brother Esau.

If God chose all of mankind, then the very nature in that choice is to save. So, Romans 8 with your view would lead to all people being predestinated to be BORN in God's family among the other their brethren.(8:29) Notice this happens to all that are called.(8:28) In your view this would include all mankind, would it not?

This is what most Calvinist think but, it isn't what I believe. Being called isn't a choosing. Being called by God is being called to do something for Him. Salvation is for us not Him.
Being drawn to God before Salvation is the effect of His election, because all are drawn to Him when they hear the gospel.
God said,
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Romans 8:28-29
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

These are called to do work for God and they weren't called until after Salvation. You will notice that it clearly states "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God," You can't Love someone you simply don't know. Then it says"to them who are the called according to his purpose." . Each of us have a purpose, a work to do for God.
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

The Jews were chosen as a people for which the messiah would come through. This wasn't an election for Salvation though particular it was. Actually some Jews would tell you that it was a curse. Salvation can't be had with out election even though the election it self doesn't insure Salvation. Not all true Jews will be saved and the only reason is there rejection of Christ.
James said we must submit,
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Submission is saying OK Lord do with me what you will. It's when we give up on our rebellion.

Then you must agree that election was in the granting of repentance to the Gentiles.
as in,
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
These men didn't understand there election as particular but as a choosing of all the Gentiles. They didn't just refer to themselves but included the Gentile brothers as well. More importantly though Paul wrote about their exclamations he didn't offer corrections either.

Indeed you are right. Election for the Jews was a choice to bless them above all other nations. Through them all the other nations would be blessed in the coming of Christ. God also blessed them with the LAW and the Bible.

.

Election doesn't stop them but Total depravity does. It stops them in the claimed inability of man to respond before being made new.
God chose many times before Jacob. Each time He chose a believer.
None of those chosen were for Salvation. For instance Jacob already believed in God as did his father and brother Esau.

This is what most Calvinist think but, it isn't what I believe. Being called isn't a choosing. Being called by God is being called to do something for Him. Salvation is for us not Him.
Being drawn to God before Salvation is the effect of His election, because all are drawn to Him when they hear the gospel.
God said,
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

These are called to do work for God and they weren't called until after Salvation. You will notice that it clearly states "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God," You can't Love someone you simply don't know. Then it says"to them who are the called according to his purpose." . Each of us have a purpose, a work to do for God.
MB

This is a long one. I got in late, so I'll take this on in the morning.

 

[MB]

Hi Jay,
I'm a biblist. I can't help myself. The scriptures are my sole rule of faith.
We are called to several things. I haven't been able to find anything that would make us think we are called to Salvation. Drawn yes.
Mat 9:13, Mark 2:17, and Luke 5:32 are calls to repentance which is the turning from sin. Although even the saved can be called to repentance. I heard the term used so many times as if to Salvation,and yet not once have I been able to find such in scripture.
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Jay,
I'm a biblist. I can't help myself. The scriptures are my sole rule of faith.

If you mean by biblist, that you follow the Bible and the Bible only, this would be the rule by which Calvinist and Arminian alike claim their faith. This however does not mean we agree.

We are called to several things.

please don't take my thunder from the post coming up.

I haven't been able to find anything that would make us think we are called to Salvation.

If I showed you just one passage, would you believe?

Mat 9:13, Mark 2:17, and Luke 5:32 are calls to repentance which is the turning from sin. Although even the saved can be called to repentance. I heard the term used so many times as if to Salvation,and yet not once have I been able to find such in scripture.

I'll give you this...
It has been misused. However, this is not the case in the passage we have looked at. I hope to show this in my next post.

 

[Jarthur001]

The Jews were chosen as a people for which the messiah would come through. This wasn't an election for Salvation though particular it was. Actually some Jews would tell you that it was a curse.

I agree

Salvation can't be had with out election even though the election it self doesn't insure Salvation.

This statement puzzles me. You said above that in the case of the Jewish nation, election is not to salvation. Yet in this statement you act is if there is only one type of election. If there is a election to salvation, those that are chosen will be saved, or the election means nothing. However, there are other elections that have to do with blessings and leadership and not salvation. But by looking at all of these we see the way God works. And it is clear that God elects...for God is in control.

Not all true Jews will be saved and the only reason is there rejection of Christ.

I agree

James said we must submit,
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Submission is saying OK Lord do with me what you will. It's when we give up on our rebellion.

I agree

Then you must agree that election was in the granting of repentance to the Gentiles.
as in,Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

1st, with this statement, we know that is was not granted before this time or they would not have been talking about it. So we have 1000s of years before this where it was not granted.

2nd this is clearly a statement to show that salvation was now open the non Jews as a whole just as much as to the Jews. This is not meant that all non-Jews are elect.

These men didn't understand there election as particular but as a choosing of all the Gentiles. They didn't just refer to themselves but included the Gentile brothers as well. More importantly though Paul wrote about their exclamations he didn't offer corrections either.

The Jewish believers had no idea before this time, that a non Jew could be saved. Yet they saw it with their own eyes. They knew what had happen to them, also happen to some that were not Jews. Yes they talked of them as a group, for this was new to them. But please notice this phrase in verse 17.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

what was I, that I could withstand God?? indeed who was he that he could withstand God? If God elects you or any one to salvation, please tell me a great being that can stop God from doing this. There is none. So if this is election to salvation..and it is toward all of the non-Jewish people, then what man will stop God?

Election doesn't stop them but Total depravity does. It stops them in the claimed inability of man to respond before being made new.

I agree

God chose many times before Jacob. Each time He chose a believer.
None of those chosen were for Salvation. For instance Jacob already believed in God as did his father and brother Esau.

Cain believed in God too. Cain talked with God. Cain was cast from Gods face, never to see it again. Was he chosen?

I'm late, so I will skip some of this. But I want to address one thing.

you said about Romans 8 28-29

This is what most Calvinist think but, it isn't what I believe. Being called isn't a choosing. Being called by God is being called to do something for Him. Salvation is for us not Him.
Being drawn to God before Salvation is the effect of His election, because all are drawn to Him when they hear the gospel.

I disagree in this case. Called in this passage it becomes clear as you study it, what it means. Let me start by asking why is the word "for" at the beginning of verse 29? Do you feel it is linked in any way back to verse 28?

 

[webdog]

Cain believed in God too. Cain talked with God. Cain was cast from Gods face, never to see it again. Was he chosen?

This caught my attention. Do we know Cain was lost? At any rate, he would then be "chosen" to be cast aside, would he not? So the notion God only chooses some for salvation and leaves the rest is false, as God chooses the reprobate also, what many calvinists here deny.

 

[MB]

I agree


This statement puzzles me. You said above that in the case of the Jewish nation, election is not to salvation. Yet in this statement you act is if there is only one type of election.

There is only one that concerns us today and that is being chosen for Salvation.

If there is a election to salvation, those that are chosen will be saved, or the election means nothing.

Not exactly nothing. Being chosen for Salvation is conditional upon our repentance and our belief. The choosing only is unconditional because all are chosen. Election is not Salvation, it is only for Salvation. Rather like being chosen as volunteers for Salvation. We have to be willing to submit. What does being submissive mean? IMO it means to be willing to surrender.

However, there are other elections that have to do with blessings and leadership and not salvation. But by looking at all of these we see the way God works. And it is clear that God elects...for God is in control.

I don't deny that God is in control which is the very reason we have to be submissive to His will. If we are like the Jews who rejected Christ we will be lost. Submission is an act of the will. Not to assumed that our compliance saves us because in reality it doesn't save us. Even though it is required. Our willingness to submit is seen in our repentance and belief and no this doesn't save us. Our Salvation is only a possibility of God. Jn 3:16 and Gal 2:16 both say "might be saved". It's still up to God. Election is unconditional but Salvation is very conditional. We must repent, we must confess, we must submit, and most importantly, we must believe. Then it is only we might be saved.

I agree
I agree
1st, with this statement, we know that is was not granted before this time or they would not have been talking about it. So we have 1000s of years before this where it was not granted.

Actually not, or the ninevehvites would never have believed God. There were those before election became effective who believed. What does election mean. So what if we are chosen if man is still able to believe in the one true God.

2nd this is clearly a statement to show that salvation was now open the non Jews as a whole just as much as to the Jews. This is not meant that all non-Jews are elect.

Is there anyone else that the term Gentile doesn't include besides the Jews?

The Jewish believers had no idea before this time, that a non Jew could be saved. Yet they saw it with their own eyes. They knew what had happen to them, also happen to some that were not Jews. Yes they talked of them as a group, for this was new to them. But please notice this phrase in verse 17.

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Don't you see that Peter was amazed over this in defense of his Jewishness. We all know that in His vision he viewed it as objectionable to eat with Gentiles. Even in verse 17 he exclaimed who was He that he could with stand God. Peter couldn't argue with God over who God wanted to choose and neither can we. This verse is why the Gentiles in verse 18 glorified God. Paul who it is said to have written acts didn't try to correct it and neither did Peter. Christ chose to die for the whole world that they might be saved. In choosing to die for the sins of the world He chose the whole world for Salvation. Salvation is still conditional and these conditions are why all men aren't saved. Which places the responsibility on the ones who are responsible, the men them selves.

what was I, that I could withstand God?? indeed who was he that he could withstand God? If God elects you or any one to salvation, please tell me a great being that can stop God from doing this. There is none. So if this is election to salvation..and it is toward all of the non-Jewish people, then what man will stop God?

None will ever stop God which is why we can't claim that His choosing of the whole world is impossible. God can choose as many as He likes.

I agree



Cain believed in God too. Cain talked with God. Cain was cast from Gods face, never to see it again. Was he chosen?

Cain lived in a time before election was known of by man. However it seems that pews are often filled with believers who have no Salvation because they have refused the conditions of Salvation. This is why it's so very important to all of us that we accept those conditions and submit to God.

I'm late, so I will skip some of this. But I want to address one thing.

you said about Romans 8 28-29

I disagree in this case. Called in this passage it becomes clear as you study it, what it means. Let me start by asking why is the word "for" at the beginning of verse 29? Do you feel it is linked in any way back to verse 28?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Yes these two passages relate to each other. These He foreknew were saved long before verse 28 which is why he foreknew them. They were saved and is why they were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. They were chosen in Him not predestined to be conformed before they believed.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
We are chosen in Him which shows us we are chosen according to the conditions of Salvation. We have to believe in Him in order that our election to be effective. We are then predestined unto adoption.

May God Bless you.
MB