Calvinism Denies Scripture: "All" = Some

[Jarthur001]

This caught my attention. Do we know Cain was lost? At any rate, he would then be "chosen" to be cast aside, would he not? So the notion God only chooses some for salvation and leaves the rest is false, as God chooses the reprobate also, what many calvinists here deny.

Yes we do know this. Its callled the way of Cain (jude)
we can talk about if he was chosen or not, one way or another, but that was not the point. The point was to show people can know God, and can even believe in a God, and still not be saved...which was what was said.

 

[webdog]

Yes we do know this. Its callled the way of Cain (jude)
we can talk about if he was chosen or not, one way or another, but that was not the point. The point was to show people can know God, and can even believe in a God, and still not be saved...which was what was said.

Jude gave characteristics of the false teachers, with Cain's being but one example used (selfishness, hatred of brother, etc.). The text does not state Cain died a reprobate man.

 

[Jarthur001]

Not exactly nothing. Being chosen for Salvation is conditional upon our repentance and our belief.

Listen to what you are saying. Being chosen....or Gods election....is based on someone other then God. So.. choosing to repent is one condition that God must see in a person in order to chose them and also this election is based on a person choosing to believe. If a person choose these two things, then God will choose them. Is this really what you are saying? If so..why does God chose?

And i'm sure you mean repent as in turning from the ways of the world and turning to the things of God. And as far as believing, it is my feeling you mean once they repent if they believe not just in a God, but that God is their only hope of salvation and they see their need as a sinner to be saved from their sin, thereby they believe Christ is their salvation, at this point and not before God can then choose them to be saved.

So what is election for? In other words, if election never happens to these people that have chosen to repent, and chosen to believe would they then go to hell?

Lets remove ourself from the subject of salvation and apply this to another subject. Lets say there is a bus setting in from of a school and the driver walks from the bus and places red cards on a table. The driver then says, I amd going to New York City. Anyone that picks up one of these red cards and walks on the bus, I will drive them freely to New York City. If there is 100 students that day, and 20 pick up a card and walk on the bus, who made the choice of what people should go to NYC? Would it be better for the bus driver to then get on the bus and go to each person and say, I chose you to go, I choose you to go…I chose you to go and on. Has not the choice already been made?

The choosing only is unconditional because all are chosen.

Ok..well now I understand why you said that. You feel all of mankind has been choosen. If this is the case then all will be saved. Please read Eph 1.

I'm sorry, but this is just not the case.
Deuteronomy 7:7-9 “The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your forefathers that He brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

There are many good verses to prove this, but none are more clear then Malachi 1

Notice in verse 2 God makes a statement…I love you. This he is saying to “his chosen people”. Yet look what His people say back. They ask…when have you ever loved us? Now to prove his love God makes a big point here. Again..this statement is by God to prove He loves “his people”. God says.. “Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau,”

2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Did you notice how long this hate last? Forever. Did you see that they will build up…and God will throw down. Why was this done? It was to prove God loved His chosen people more then others.

Election is not Salvation, it is only for Salvation.

I agree with this...but how can you say this if you believe all are elect?????

Rather like being chosen as volunteers for Salvation. We have to be willing to submit. What does being submissive mean? IMO it means to be willing to surrender

Volunteers for salvation? That's a new one. Is election for salvation, or is it for volunteers? This is wishy washy. Who is in control here?

Actually not, or the ninevehvites would never have believed God. There were those before election became effective who believed. What does election mean. So what if we are chosen if man is still able to believe in the one true God.

The Jews were Gods Chosen people. I have never met any one to disagree with this. No other nation was chosen.

Notice in Isa 43...God gave...and in this context this means gave over to death Egypt, Ethiopia and Seba....He gave them over as a RANSOM for his people. WHY? Because He loved them.

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee

Ok so what about the ninevehvites? This was Gods election at work. No other nation was shown favor, then God comes to a Jew, one of the elect and says...Go tell these people. Not all nations....just this one that was outside of the Jewish nation. The reason Acts was a shock to the believers, is that new this did not happen to other nations before this time....except for ninevehvites. So why the ninevehvites? They were wicked people. Why did God chose to send someone to them? What good did God see in them? None. Elction is the power of God and for His pleasure. To some he gives mercy and saving grace. To others He leaves in their sin.

What good did God see in Paul? Tis grace my friend that saves.

None will ever stop God which is why we can't claim that His choosing of the whole world is impossible. God can choose as many as He likes.

Now read this close to understand. Gods love would never let this happen.

Cain lived in a time before election was known of by man.

Cain did not know Abel?


However it seems that pews are often filled with believers who have no Salvation because they have refused the conditions of Salvation. This is why it's so very important to all of us that we accept those conditions and submit to God.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Yes these two passages relate to each other. These He foreknew were saved long before verse 28 which is why he foreknew them. They were saved and is why they were predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. They were chosen in Him not predestined to be conformed before they believed

.
My point is this...if all people are chosen...then all people are saved if you take this verse. So....what does "called" mean here? Because all that are called...are saved. ALL OF THEM

 

[Jarthur001]

Jude gave characteristics of the false teachers, with Cain's being but one example used (selfishness, hatred of brother, etc.). The text does not state Cain died a reprobate man.

I think I can show this. However i want to ask.....

Do you believe Cain was a believer?

 

[webdog]

I think I can show this. However i want to ask.....

Do you believe Cain was a believer?

I don't lean one way or the other. There is not enough information given about the rest of his days.

 

[MB]

Listen to what you are saying. Being chosen....or Gods election....is based on someone other then God. So.. choosing to repent is one condition that God must see in a person in order to chose them and also this election is based on a person choosing to believe. If a person choose these two things, then God will choose them. Is this really what you are saying? If so..why does God chose?

And i'm sure you mean repent as in turning from the ways of the world and turning to the things of God. And as far as believing, it is my feeling you mean once they repent if they believe not just in a God, but that God is their only hope of salvation and they see their need as a sinner to be saved from their sin, thereby they believe Christ is their salvation, at this point and not before God can then choose them to be saved.

So what is election for? In other words, if election never happens to these people that have chosen to repent, and chosen to believe would they then go to hell?

Lets remove ourself from the subject of salvation and apply this to another subject. Lets say there is a bus setting in from of a school and the driver walks from the bus and places red cards on a table. The driver then says, I amd going to New York City. Anyone that picks up one of these red cards and walks on the bus, I will drive them freely to New York City. If there is 100 students that day, and 20 pick up a card and walk on the bus, who made the choice of what people should go to NYC? Would it be better for the bus driver to then get on the bus and go to each person and say, I chose you to go, I choose you to go…I chose you to go and on. Has not the choice already been made?


Ok..well now I understand why you said that. You feel all of mankind has been choosen. If this is the case then all will be saved. Please read Eph 1.

Eph 1 doesn't say that all the elect will be saved. Eph 1:4 says we are chosen "in Him" the word us in that verse includes us all. There simply is no exclusions.

I'm sorry, but this is just not the case.
Deuteronomy 7:7-9 “The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your forefathers that He brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

The election of the Jews and the election of Christ choosing to die for the world are two different things. Though Christ died for the world because He so loved the world just as He loved the descendants of their forefathers. He didn't just love a few but all of the Jews. I don't see anything particular in that at all.

There are many good verses to prove this, but none are more clear then Malachi 1

Notice in verse 2 God makes a statement…I love you. This he is saying to “his chosen people”. Yet look what His people say back. They ask…when have you ever loved us? Now to prove his love God makes a big point here. Again..this statement is by God to prove He loves “his people”. God says.. “Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau,”


Did you notice how long this hate last? Forever. Did you see that they will build up…and God will throw down. Why was this done? It was to prove God loved His chosen people more then others.

Yes I noticed all that and I also noticed that this election isn't to Salvation but was in fact God setting the Jews apart to be His people through which would come the Messiah. Why would or should we assume that an election to Salvation would be on the same bases. Since Christ died for the whole world. Different covenants are different.

I agree with this...but how can you say this if you believe all are elect?????

The Jews are still God's elect are they not. If so then explain how they can be saved because of there election, if they refuse to accept Christ as there messiah. Christ said,
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This one verse proves that election doesn't mean we will be saved no matter what, because the Jews rejected Christ and there is no other way.

Volunteers for salvation? That's a new one. Is election for salvation, or is it for volunteers? This is wishy washy. Who is in control here?

The word volunteers was meant to show that in order for men to receive the kingdom they have to trust as a little child as in.
Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
The one thing that stands out in children is there capacity to trust completely. Trust is an act of the will. They are willing.

The Jews were Gods Chosen people. I have never met any one to disagree with this. No other nation was chosen.

Notice in Isa 43...God gave...and in this context this means gave over to death Egypt, Ethiopia and Seba....He gave them over as a RANSOM for his people. WHY? Because He loved them.


Ok so what about the ninevehvites? This was Gods election at work. No other nation was shown favor, then God comes to a Jew, one of the elect and says...Go tell these people. Not all nations....just this one that was outside of the Jewish nation. The reason Acts was a shock to the believers, is that new this did not happen to other nations before this time....except for ninevehvites. So why the ninevehvites? They were wicked people. Why did God chose to send someone to them? What good did God see in them? None. Elction is the power of God and for His pleasure. To some he gives mercy and saving grace. To others He leaves in their sin.

The Ninevhvites were not elect. as were the Jews. Though you agree that they believed what Jonah told them and believed God. The Ninevehvites were outsiders. This action of there belief in God shows that men are not incapable of believing God or incapable of hearing and understanding. It shows that God can save whom ever He wants to and does. It shows that all things are possible with God. It shows that God can die for the whole world meaning everyone in it. It shows that His dying for the world is the election of everyone in this world for Salvation. It shows that men do have a choice to be willing or not.

What good did God see in Paul? Tis grace my friend that saves.

God didn't see anything in Paul that made him deserving. But since you mention this. You're right grace does save but only through faith. "No faith No Salvation"
You will notice in act 9 a light shinned around Paul from Heaven. If this happened to you wouldn't you want to know who it was that spoke to you from the light? Paul at this point didn't believe because he had to ask who it was. It just seems reasonable that if this is a picture of Paul's regeneration then He should have known. When Jesus told Paul who He was. Paul was shaken because of His own guilt of persecuting Jesus. Paul is right away convinced of the truth because of His experience and ask Lord what will you have me do. In verse 6 Paul confesses that Jesus is who He said He was and in that moment was saved. This passage shows Paul's fear of what was happening by Paul calling the voice Lord Just in case. It shows Paul's conviction, it shows Paul being convinced of Christ, and shows Paul's confession of Jesus being Lord.
There is no regeneration before faith here what is here is an unusual act of Jesus Himself ministering to Paul

Now read this close to understand. Gods love would never let this happen.

So you say, this isn't what God says, nor is it what His word says.

Cain did not know Abel?


However it seems that pews are often filled with believers who have no Salvation because they have refused the conditions of Salvation. This is why it's so very important to all of us that we accept those conditions and submit to God.

.
My point is this...if all people are chosen...then all people are saved if you take this verse. So....what does "called" mean here? Because all that are called...are saved. ALL OF THEM

Your point above in bold.
Scripture never says that all the elect will be saved.
The calling of every believer is the great commission. To spread the gospel. To allow Christ to live through us. To do what ever God ask of us. The call is not election or Paul would have said elected, not called.
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

Eph 1 doesn't say that all the elect will be saved. Eph 1:4 says we are chosen "in Him" the word us in that verse includes us all. There simply is no exclusions.

The word us means us all? as in all of mankind?

I'll get back to the old "in Christ" argument. My reply is kinda long to this one, so I may take a full post on it. But for now I must know for sure what you are claiming here. Am I reading you right that you fell US means all of mankind?

The election of the Jews and the election of Christ choosing to die for the world are two different things. Though Christ died for the world because He so loved the world just as He loved the descendants of their forefathers. He didn't just love a few but all of the Jews. I don't see anything particular in that at all.

The loving of the Jewish nation shows the nature of God. We both agree that this election was not to salvation. But it shows that God does choose some and not others. He loved all the Jews, but not all the Egyptians. That has been shown.

Yes I noticed all that and I also noticed that this election isn't to Salvation but was in fact God setting the Jews apart to be His people through which would come the Messiah. Why would or should we assume that an election to Salvation would be on the same bases. Since Christ died for the whole world. Different covenants are different.

Why should we believe this? How about because the Bible tells us.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The Jews are still God's elect are they not

.
yes

If so then explain how they can be saved because of there election, if they refuse to accept Christ as there messiah.

They cannot. Again I'm not sure what you are missing here. I said it...you said it. The Jewish election was not to salvation. Yet..there is a election to salvation, and God chooses who he wants just as He chose the nation that He wanted, just as HE choose those in Nineveh for salvation. Nineveh was not the chosen nation, but God chose/elected to save many of them. It was GODS idea. God sent someone. Nineveh did not come to God. This is GODS election.

Christ said,
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Indeed it does say this.

This one verse proves that election doesn't mean we will be saved no matter what, because the Jews rejected Christ and there is no other way.

It does no such thing. Again ....The Jewish nation was NOT elected to salvation. I'm not sure how better to say it. I'll think about maybe I can word it better next time. however...again it must be said...there is a election TO salvation, and that has been shown. The only reason why to look at the Jewish election, is to see how God works. GOD DOES CHOSE PEOPLE!! It has been seen over and over. However and this is the tricky part...the Jewish nation was chosen to BELIEVE in God.

Galations 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
humm

Read Daniel 4 to see yet another way God chose one person over the other.

God choses people. People like David over his brothers. Notice God makes a point to say the LAND or the City is not chosen. It is PEOPLE God choose.

Since the day that I brought forth my people Israel out of Egypt, I chose no city out of all the tribes of Israel to build an house, that my name might be therein; but I chose David to be over my people Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:6-9) For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession

But notice the Nation only came about because God chose a MAN over other men.

Now let's look at the things that God promises Abraham.

I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

Then came Jacob. Jacob the MAN was chosen over his brother. Why? Because God choose people.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are Gods work.
Gods work includes creating us.
God created us IN CHRIST.
God created us FOR good works.
WHICH this work was before ordained
It was ordained so that we(the work of God) should walk in them(good works)

The Ninevhvites were not elect. as were the Jews.

oh but they were. The nation was not chosen, but many was chosen By God for GOD MADE someone go!! It was Gods election for them to hear.

Though you agree that they believed what Jonah told them and believed God. The Ninevehvites were outsiders.

Indeed. Still many was Gods choice to save. Ask yourself this please.
Why did God send Jonah at that time? Nineveh had hundred and twenty thousand people in that day. I live in a town about that size. Each day in the paper we have about 25 people that are placed in the obits. 25 people each day for a year adds up to over 8000 people a year. If Gods goal was to save those that died the year before Jonah came, why did not God send Jonah the year before. For that matter why not 5 years before, when 24,000 people would have heard the gospel before they died? Why at that moment in time did God send someone?

This action of there belief in God shows that men are not incapable of believing God or incapable of hearing and understanding.

Not if they are elected to salvation. It is clear God wanted these people saved. And guess what...they were.

It shows that God can save whom ever He wants to and does.

Thank you. I rest my case on your point.

It shows that all things are possible with God.

indeed.

It shows that God can die for the whole world meaning everyone in it.

again you forget those that died before God sent someone.

It shows that His dying for the world is the election of everyone in this world for Salvation.

I'm sorry but this is just not the case. Never have I met anyone that said that all men were elected. But...that a lone does not make it false. However I will begin to show you just how silly this is, after this post.

It shows that men do have a choice to be willing or not.

Man does have a choice, but without election that choice will always be no thanks God.

You will notice in act 9 a light shinned around Paul from Heaven. If this happened to you wouldn't you want to know who it was that spoke to you from the light? Paul at this point didn't believe because he had to ask who it was. It just seems reasonable that if this is a picture of Paul's regeneration then He should have known. When Jesus told Paul who He was. Paul was shaken because of His own guilt of persecuting Jesus. Paul is right away convinced of the truth because of His experience and ask Lord what will you have me do. In verse 6 Paul confesses that Jesus is who He said He was and in that moment was saved. This passage shows Paul's fear of what was happening by Paul calling the voice Lord Just in case. It shows Paul's conviction, it shows Paul being convinced of Christ, and shows Paul's confession of Jesus being Lord.
There is no regeneration before faith here what is here is an unusual act of Jesus Himself ministering to Paul

Not at all. You have a poor misunderstanding of regeneration. No man knows all about God from the very beginning. regeneration means man can now know about God.

So you say, this isn't what God says, nor is it what His word says.

So I say...so the Bible says. Please read the love chapter.

.

 

[Jarthur001]

From a post above..

It shows that His dying for the world is the election of everyone in this world for Salvation.

Lets start from the beginning.

Do you believe all men go to heaven?

Is Gods goal to save all mankind?

 

[TCGreek]

God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1Tim 2:4).

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't lean one way or the other. There is not enough information given about the rest of his days.

I think there is enough info.

Is God in Heaven?

Will all believers someday see God?

 

[Jarthur001]

God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1Tim 2:4).

Before I reply, let me state what I asked once again.

Is Gods goal....the plan...the decree of God...is it and has it always been to save each and every person born into this world?

The meaning of the verse is given in verse 7. Notice the 1st word.."Whereunto". The ESV uses these words.."For this". Meaning "for this reason". What reason? That God desires all men to be saved.

7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Back to verse 4.

thelō found here in verse 4...I like "will" better.
Young puts it this way..

who doth will all men to be save

KJV uses "will" here too

NIV has "wants"

I'm trying to show how much I place on this word. It is a great level of power. The power of God is found here. God desires...God wants...Gods will....

If mans will is bound...and it is...there most be a controlling factor. There is a controlling factor, for we see salvation. Christ prayed..."Thy will be done". This pray was to the Father. Would Christ pray for anything out of line? I say no.

The salvation of 2:4 is not a possible salvation for all without exception, but it is an actual salvation for the chosen ones by God the Father. If the will of God was dependent on the will of man ...no one would be saved, because salvation would be of him that wills and of him that runs, which would contradict Romans 9:16 “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” .

So when this mercy is given, who controls who gets the mercy? Is Gods will played out when He gives mercy? I think so. I think that Gods will comes about and God saves all that He wills to save.

so....what is meant in 2:4?

ALL MEN, Gentiles as well as Jews, are now on an equal footing...for this reason I teach the Gentiles.

 

[TCGreek]

Before I reply, let me state what I asked once again.



The meaning of the verse is given in verse 7. Notice the 1st word.."Whereunto". The ESV uses these words.."For this". Meaning "for this reason". What reason? That God desires all men to be saved.

7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Back to verse 4.

thelō found here in verse 4...I like "will" better.
Young puts it this way..

who doth will all men to be save

KJV uses "will" here too

NIV has "wants"

I'm trying to show how much I place on this word. It is a great level of power. The power of God is found here. God desires...God wants...Gods will....

If mans will is bound...and it is...there most be a controlling factor. There is a controlling factor, for we see salvation. Christ prayed..."Thy will be done". This pray was to the Father. Would Christ pray for anything out of line? I say no.

The salvation of 2:4 is not a possible salvation for all without exception, but it is an actual salvation for the chosen ones by God the Father. If the will of God was dependent on the will of man ...no one would be saved, because salvation would be of him that wills and of him that runs, which would contradict Romans 9:16 “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” .

So when this mercy is given, who controls who gets the mercy? Is Gods will played out when He gives mercy? I think so. I think that Gods will comes about and God saves all that He wills to save.

so....what is meant in 2:4?

ALL MEN, Gentiles as well as Jews, are now on an equal footing...for this reason I teach the Gentiles.

I commend your use of v.7, though it is not the usual gar or dia touto expressions of Paul, but rather eis ho, "unto which."

 

[webdog]

I think there is enough info.

Is God in Heaven?

Will all believers someday see God?

Why do you post like the Riddler? Just state what it is you want to state. I don't have the time for this ping pong posting. The questions are riduculous.

 

[MB]

Eph 1 doesn't say that all the elect will be saved. Eph 1:4 says we are chosen "in Him" the word us in that verse includes us all. There simply is no exclusions.

The word us means us all? as in all of mankind?

That's right all of us were chosen in the why of Christ dying for the sin of the world

[
I'll get back to the old "in Christ" argument. My reply is kinda long to this one, so I may take a full post on it. But for now I must know for sure what you are claiming here. Am I reading you right that you fell US means all of mankind?


The loving of the Jewish nation shows the nature of God. We both agree that this election was not to salvation. But it shows that God does choose some and not others. He loved all the Jews, but not all the Egyptians. That has been shown.

What I don't understand is that you can see the God loved all the Jews, but you can't see how He loves the world as He said in Jn 3:16

Why should we believe this? How about because the Bible tells us.

I'm not aware of it saying that all covenants are the same. Sin entered the world by one man. Which is why we are all sinners. Paul said,
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
When Christ died for the world He died for the all the same men effected by the sin of Adam.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

True every word but with out faith there is no grace because Grace is always through faith

.

yes


They cannot. Again I'm not sure what you are missing here. I said it...you said it. The Jewish election was not to salvation. Yet..there is a election to salvation, and God chooses who he wants just as He chose the nation that He wanted, just as HE choose those in Nineveh for salvation. Nineveh was not the chosen nation, but God chose/elected to save many of them. It was GODS idea. God sent someone. Nineveh did not come to God. This is GODS election.

Their Salvation was all of God just as ours is I agree and just as you say "elected to save many of them." Yet God elected them all to hear Jonah.

Indeed it does say this.


It does no such thing. Again ....The Jewish nation was NOT elected to salvation. I'm not sure how better to say it. I'll think about maybe I can word it better next time. however...again it must be said...there is a election TO salvation, and that has been shown. The only reason why to look at the Jewish election, is to see how God works. GOD DOES CHOSE PEOPLE!! It has been seen over and over. However and this is the tricky part...the Jewish nation was chosen to BELIEVE in God.

Sometimes it's best to just let God's word say what it says,
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Galations 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
humm

Read Daniel 4 to see yet another way God chose one person over the other.

God choses people. People like David over his brothers. Notice God makes a point to say the LAND or the City is not chosen. It is PEOPLE God choose.




But notice the Nation only came about because God chose a MAN over other men.

Now let's look at the things that God promises Abraham.

I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

Then came Jacob. Jacob the MAN was chosen over his brother. Why? Because God choose people.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Please note in this verse that the word "should" does not mean will.
God has chosen individuals and still does for different tasks. Although it's the whosoevers who believe that are really saved. There is no whosoever in a particular election where only certain ones are saved.

We are Gods work.
Gods work includes creating us.
God created us IN CHRIST.
God created us FOR good works.
WHICH this work was before ordained
It was ordained so that we(the work of God) should walk in them(good works)

True as long as we are in HIM



oh but they were. The nation was not chosen, but many was chosen By God for GOD MADE someone go!! It was Gods election for them to hear.

You can see there being chosen to be saved but when Christ said He died for the world it's only a select few.

Indeed. Still many was Gods choice to save. Ask yourself this please.
Why did God send Jonah at that time? Nineveh had hundred and twenty thousand people in that day. I live in a town about that size. Each day in the paper we have about 25 people that are placed in the obits. 25 people each day for a year adds up to over 8000 people a year. If Gods goal was to save those that died the year before Jonah came, why did not God send Jonah the year before. For that matter why not 5 years before, when 24,000 people would have heard the gospel before they died? Why at that moment in time did God send someone?

What good does it do to speculate about the "could haves" When God could have eliminated the possibility of sin before it ever existed? My answer never the less is God's timing. I'm sure He had a reason however my speculation doesn't have much of a chance of being right. Neither does anyone elses. Scripture doesn't say why.

Not if they are elected to salvation. It is clear God wanted these people saved. And guess what...they were.


Thank you. I rest my case on your point.


indeed.



again you forget those that died before God sent someone.



I'm sorry but this is just not the case. Never have I met anyone that said that all men were elected. But...that a lone does not make it false. However I will begin to show you just how silly this is, after this post.


Man does have a choice, but without election that choice will always be no thanks God.



Not at all. You have a poor misunderstanding of regeneration. No man knows all about God from the very beginning. regeneration means man can now know about God.




So I say...so the Bible says. Please read the love chapter.

.

In reality if there was proof of Particular election you would have shown it and you haven't. Even someone with a poor misunderstanding as you say I have can see that you haven't
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

What I don't understand is that you can see the God loved all the Jews, but you can't see how He loves the world as He said in Jn 3:16

I never said God does not love the world, now did I? John 3:16 is clear on this. I happen to believe all the Bible. Now do you believe the Bible when it says God hates, or will you change the meaning of the word to fit your doctrine?

I see it as it is stated. Just as I love food, I do not love peas, which is a food.

NOTE:>> But you have not answered what was asked. Do you feel in Eph 1 that “US” means all of mankind??

I'm not aware of it saying that all covenants are the same. Sin entered the world by one man. Which is why we are all sinners. Paul said,
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Although I follow and agree with I fail to see your point

When Christ died for the world He died for the all the same men effected by the sin of Adam.

When Christ died on the cross He paid a ransom for sin our. What do you feel this word ransom means?. When Christ died on the cross, it was also an atonement for our sins. What does the word atonement mean to you? When Christ died on the Cross, he said it was finished. What does that mean to you?

Please review these veses…

Lev 16
21And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Now the New Test.

Heb 2
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Did God choose all the Jews? Yes….but not all nations. Was the atonement for all the chosen people? Yes...but not all the nations. The atonement was for ALL the people of ONE chosen nation, Just as Christ blood was for ALL the elect from ALL the nations of the world, in the Church age. This is election and it is particular

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

True every word but with out faith there is no grace because Grace is always through faith

Always though faith. But the point was made in the verse that people ARE elected to salvation.

Their Salvation was all of God just as ours is I agree and just as you say "elected to save many of them." Yet God elected them all to hear Jonah.

But the point was that GOD did the electing. He elected the Jews and the Jews only. Then one day he showed Jonah that a few others were elected by send Jonah. This my friend shows election is particular

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are Gods work.
Gods work includes creating us.
God created us IN CHRIST.
God created us FOR good works.
WHICH this work was before ordained
It was ordained so that we(the work of God) should walk in them(good works)

True as long as we are in HIM

Please notice again we are created “in Christ” by God. This is Gods work.

What good does it do to speculate about the "could haves" When God could have eliminated the possibility of sin before it ever existed? My answer never the less is God's timing. I'm sure He had a reason however my speculation doesn't have much of a chance of being right. Neither does anyone elses. Scripture doesn't say why.

Because these were people that died before Jonah went. Real people. And these people God did not lead Jonah to tell about God. Now they had the sky and moon to till them about God. All men have the sky and moon. But all do not have a preacher. Why? How shall they hear without a preacher? This is shows election is particular

In reality if there was proof of Particular election you would have shown it and you haven't. Even someone with a poor misunderstanding as you say I have can see that you haven't

I feel I have.

Have you read the love Chapter? This tells us what love is. It also limits love. It also tells us that if its REAL love...it will never end. If God loves the world..and He does, we must know what real love is. The love chapter tells us what love is.

 

[JustChristian]

Nicely done. :thumbs:

In other words, your concept of interpreting scripture that doesn't fit into your philosophy is to make light of it.

 

[tjfkbrawny]

Before I reply, let me state what I asked once again.



The meaning of the verse is given in verse 7. Notice the 1st word.."Whereunto". The ESV uses these words.."For this". Meaning "for this reason". What reason? That God desires all men to be saved.

7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Back to verse 4.

thelō found here in verse 4...I like "will" better.
Young puts it this way..

who doth will all men to be save

KJV uses "will" here too

NIV has "wants"

I'm trying to show how much I place on this word. It is a great level of power. The power of God is found here. God desires...God wants...Gods will....

If mans will is bound...and it is...there most be a controlling factor. There is a controlling factor, for we see salvation. Christ prayed..."Thy will be done". This pray was to the Father. Would Christ pray for anything out of line? I say no.

The salvation of 2:4 is not a possible salvation for all without exception, but it is an actual salvation for the chosen ones by God the Father. If the will of God was dependent on the will of man ...no one would be saved, because salvation would be of him that wills and of him that runs, which would contradict Romans 9:16 “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” .

So when this mercy is given, who controls who gets the mercy? Is Gods will played out when He gives mercy? I think so. I think that Gods will comes about and God saves all that He wills to save.

so....what is meant in 2:4?

ALL MEN, Gentiles as well as Jews, are now on an equal footing...for this reason I teach the Gentiles.

No, God's goal is to bring glory to himself.

 

[Jarthur001]

No, God's goal is to bring glory to himself.

Not sure what the no was about, but I agree with the statement.