Calvinism Explained In One Word

[Aaron]

That's easy. Because we love our fellow man and we love the Gospel.

Click below for seven reasons why Calvinists evangelize.

http://www.corkfpc.com/whyevangelise.html

 

[Brother Bob]

Here's what I think. The Calvinist is the only one who can have any assurance that his prayers avail anything. I can't understand why non-Calvinists pray at all.

You make this statement and then you tell us why you like to preach to us. weird! I think you went overboard and become completely disrespectful.

That's easy. Because we love our fellow man and we love the Gospel.

Click below for seven reasons why Calvinists evangelize.

 

[webdog]

C'mon, J.D., we're waiting for an explanation here.

Here's what I think. The Calvinist is the only one who can have any assurance that his prayers avail anything. I can't understand why non-Calvinists pray at all.

This has to be the single most foolish thing I have read on here in a long time. Way to go Aaron:thumbs:

The fact that James agrees speaks volumes...

 

[J.D.]

C'mon, J.D., we're waiting for an explanation here.

Here's what I think. The Calvinist is the only one who can have any assurance that his prayers avail anything. I can't understand why non-Calvinists pray at all.

Sorry I had to post and run but I'm back for now. And yes, you are right about that. "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much", but why? "If we ask any thing in according to His will".

As Bunyan put it:

Prayer is a sincere, sensible, affectionate pouring out of the heart or soul to God, through Christ, in the strength and assistance of the Holy Spirit, for such things as God hath promised, or according to the Word, for the good of the church, with submission, in faith, to the will of God.

"If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Why will nothing be impossible? Because the request (a) is; or, (b) is not, God's will to perform. The answer is (a), because it is God's will to be done, it will be done.

You see, prayer hinges on sovereignty.

Every prayer is a recognition of man's inability and God's ability to perform that which he has purposed to do.

If salvation were nothing more than an act of persuasive speech, as Charles Finney would have it, then there's nothing supernatural about salvation. And if there's nothing supernatural about it, why pray for the salvation of souls? Should we look to the power of God, or to our own abilities, when preaching the Gospel? Well in prayer we seek both - that God would supply His power and that he would enable us to persuade men. We recognize that God will accomplish his will, and will use the means of witnessing and persuasion to do it. We also recognize that God may use any thing from the living testimony of a chaste woman, to the smallest word, to the grandest speech, to convert a sinner. But never without His power.

A true understanding of calvinism (as opposed to "hyper" calvinism) is encapsulated in this one word - prayer. Grasp the true meaning of prayer and you have grasped the true meaning of God's sovereignty.

 

[J.D.]

I think what Aaron was trying to say is that if non-calls really believed their own theology, they would not pray. Only an open theist would have a reason to pray because the open theist believes that God will change is mind if we pray "hard" enough, whatever that means.

I don't think non-cals are bad people. I know they believe in God's sovereignty. But it's their theological system that betrays them. They hold on to it because they've been trained to think the alternative (reformed theology) is evil and unthinkable.

They believe that God is sovereign, but they have no sure definition of sovereignty. It's a moving target. "He is sovereign, but can't do this, but can do that, or is it that but not this, or some of this but not some of that, etc...

 

[Brother Bob]

Well JD and Aaron;
We are sure you two are on the inside looking out.

 

[Jarthur001]

This has to be the single most foolish thing I have read on here in a long time. Way to go Aaron:thumbs:

The fact that James agrees speaks volumes...

Your child is off the edge of your boat swiming. You notice that the river is about to go over a rather large water fall. You call out to your child to use his willpower to swim back to the boat to save himself, yet he is out having fun and will not come. Your child just WANTS to stay in the water. You send hand signs to the child trying to show him he may die if he does not come back. You can not swim yourself, so if you tried to save him you both would die. Your child will not swim, to the side of the river or back to the boat, for he does not believe there is real danger. You know of the danger, but you do not have the power to save him. And besides he is having fun and it is his will to have fun.

Now you notice another boat coming along beside your boy. This boat has a box full of life vest and large net and 5 large ropes. There are also 10 very strong men on board. Then you notice the boat is labled.. "USA Swim Team". Do you ask this boat to violate your childs free will and save him, or do you leave it up to your child? The boat has the power to save him, if you ask them to. Would you ask?

To freewillers "free will" has more power then God. It is what controls God. It is said by them, that God will always honor free will!! If in fact this is the case as freewillers say, how can a freewiller pray to God to save another person? Is this not up to the freewill of the person? Would God violate freewill? If God intervenes in a persons choice...is it freewill? If God will not intervene...why pray?

 

[Brother Bob]

You say God can't hear them, why would they ask it was as you say. why hollow in the wind, when no one can hear?

 

[Jarthur001]

delete...see below

 

[Jarthur001]

You say God can't hear them, why would they ask it was as you say. why hollow in the wind, when no one can hear?

God does not change. God changes people.

Therefore I can and do pray for God to violate freewill of the sinner. God lays this on my heart, and I listen to God and pary just as He leads. God answers prayers if we pray in His will. So God can and does intervene in peoples will and save them.

If you up hold freewill...who are you praying to...and why?

i ask again....If God will not intervene...why pray?

 

[LeBuick]

Not week-kneed or vulnerable but "Merciful" and loving. Now that is my kind of God. What you call weak-kneed and vulnerable is "Mercy".

Wonder why they rejoice in Heaven over one sinner that repenteth, if they already know that he is one of them? Strange!!!

Amen Brother :thumbs:

 

[LeBuick]

God does not change. God changes people.

Therefore I can and do pray for God to violate freewill of the sinner. God lays this on my heart, and I listen to God and pary just as He leads. God answers prayers if we pray in His will. So God can and does intervene in peoples will and save them.

If you up hold freewill...who are you praying to...and why?

i ask again....If God will not intervene...why pray?

Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Jarthur001
God does not change. God changes people.

Therefore I can and do pray for God to violate freewill of the sinner. God lays this on my heart, and I listen to God and pary just as He leads. God answers prayers if we pray in His will. So God can and does intervene in peoples will and save them.

If you up hold freewill...who are you praying to...and why?

i ask again....If God will not intervene...why pray?

With your theology, you should ask yourselves that question first and not question other people's salvation.

 

[Allan]

Your child is off the edge of your boat swiming. You notice that the river is about to go over a rather large water fall. You call out to your child to use his willpower to swim back to the boat to save himself, yet he is out having fun and will not come. Your child just WANTS to stay in the water. You send hand signs to the child trying to show him he may die if he does not come back. You can not swim yourself, so if you tried to save him you both would die. Your child will not swim, to the side of the river or back to the boat, for he does not believe there is real danger. You know of the danger, but you do not have the power to save him. And besides he is having fun and it is his will to have fun.

Now you notice another boat coming along beside your boy. This boat has a box full of life vest and large net and 5 large ropes. There are also 10 very strong men on board. Then you notice the boat is labled.. "USA Swim Team". Do you ask this boat to violate your childs free will and save him, or do you leave it up to your child? The boat has the power to save him, if you ask them to. Would you ask?

To freewillers "free will" has more power then God. It is what controls God. It is said by them, that God will always honor free will!! If in fact this is the case as freewillers say, how can a freewiller pray to God to save another person? Is this not up to the freewill of the person? Would God violate freewill? If God intervenes in a persons choice...is it freewill? If God will not intervene...why pray?

James,
As much as I appreciate you brother your complete lack of understanding and ineptablity to grasp a doctrine not Calvinistic and then try to explain what you have not grasped is completely astonishing! (which is what most Calvinist state about non-cals) Yours (JD and Aaron) understanding of free-will is likened to that of Dave Hunts understanding of Calvinism (as the Calvinists state)
Your analogy is so far off the mark that it is a perfect discriptor of classic term "straw man".

What you don't grasp is that those Recuse Teams will LEAVE a person who does not want to be saved. They WILL do all they can to save them but WILL NOT violate that persons right to not be salvation. Thank you for showing the truth of Gods word.

And as for the asinine comment:
I

... if non-calls really believed their own theology, they would not pray. Only an open theist would have a reason to pray because the open theist believes that God will change is mind if we pray "hard" enough, whatever that means.

I don't think non-cals are bad people. I know they believe in God's sovereignty. But it's their theological system that betrays them. They hold on to it because they've been trained to think the alternative (reformed theology) is evil and unthinkable.

They believe that God is sovereign, but they have no sure definition of sovereignty. It's a moving target. "He is sovereign, but can't do this, but can do that, or is it that but not this, or some of this but not some of that, etc...

Please go back and study or actually learn what Non-Cals believe because you make Dave Hunt look good. If a Calvinist REALLY believed their theology they WOULD NOT pray as all things will be accomplished whether they prayed or not because God would MAKE the Calvinist know WHAT His plan is even if they didn't seek it out! It is the Non-Cal that Prays to KNOW what that WILL is and to search it out that we may know what is the good and perfect and acceptable will of God. This is where the effectual feverent (ceaseless) pray of a righteous man avails much.

The actual point is BOTH theologies NEED prayer and it is absolute in their theologies as part of walking with God and fulfilling His purposed plan. Get off you higher than thou horses and start communicating and not condesending. You may find less resistence but then again you would have to ackowledge that what you believe is only a VEIW of the same Truths we hold.

 

[Allan]

God does not change. God changes people.

Therefore I can and do pray for God to violate freewill of the sinner. God lays this on my heart, and I listen to God and pary just as He leads. God answers prayers if we pray in His will. So God can and does intervene in peoples will and save them.

If you up hold freewill...who are you praying to...and why?

i ask again....If God will not intervene...why pray?

That is funny James... you pray that God will violate their freewill.
Why pray for God will do what God will do, will He not.
He will not be moved by your prayers. Your prayers should be...God show me who you will change today so I can pray in accordance with your will.

I will pray for the 'whosoevers' that I may with compassion and love speak to the lost that are dying on the path to Hell. And as Paul states "...that I might save some..." and the ever cherished "...prayer for ALL MEN..."

 

[Jarthur001]

Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

I'm glad you brought Jonah up. This is one of the best picture of election.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan..

As much as I appreciate you brother your complete lack of understanding and ineptablity to grasp a doctrine not Calvinistic and then try to explain what you have not grasped is completely astonishing! (which is what most Calvinist state about non-cals) Yours (JD and Aaron) understanding of free-will is likened to that of Dave Hunts understanding of Calvinism (as the Calvinists state)
Your analogy is so far off the mark that it is a perfect discriptor of classic term "straw man".

What I did was tell a story and ask a few things. No one has addressed what I asked. I did not sat this is what you believe, I asked how a person can pray to God, and believe in freewill of man. That's it.

What you don't grasp is that those Recuse Teams will LEAVE a person who does not want to be saved. They WILL do all they can to save them but WILL NOT violate that persons right to not be salvation. Thank you for showing the truth of Gods word.

What I'm asking is, will God violate a persons free will? Any ideas?

Please go back and study or actually learn what Non-Cals believe because you make Dave Hunt look good. If a Calvinist REALLY believed their theology they WOULD NOT pray as all things will be accomplished whether they prayed or not because God would MAKE the Calvinist know WHAT His plan is even if they didn't seek it out! It is the Non-Cal that Prays to KNOW what that WILL is and to search it out that we may know what is the good and perfect and acceptable will of God. This is where the effectual feverent (ceaseless) pray of a righteous man avails much.

Was that a yes..or no?

The actual point is BOTH theologies NEED prayer and it is absolute in their theologies as part of walking with God and fulfilling His purposed plan. Get off you higher than thou horses and start communicating and not condesending. You may find less resistence but then again you would have to ackowledge that what you believe is only a VEIW of the same Truths we hold.

I know Calvinist do. Just trying to understand the freewill side.

This is the statment you reply to. Please help me find the high horses condesending words. If I have, I will gladly say I'm sorry.

Your child is off the edge of your boat swiming. You notice that the river is about to go over a rather large water fall. You call out to your child to use his willpower to swim back to the boat to save himself, yet he is out having fun and will not come. Your child just WANTS to stay in the water. You send hand signs to the child trying to show him he may die if he does not come back. You can not swim yourself, so if you tried to save him you both would die. Your child will not swim, to the side of the river or back to the boat, for he does not believe there is real danger. You know of the danger, but you do not have the power to save him. And besides he is having fun and it is his will to have fun.

Now you notice another boat coming along beside your boy. This boat has a box full of life vest and large net and 5 large ropes. There are also 10 very strong men on board. Then you notice the boat is labled.. "USA Swim Team". Do you ask this boat to violate your childs free will and save him, or do you leave it up to your child? The boat has the power to save him, if you ask them to. Would you ask?

To freewillers "free will" has more power then God. It is what controls God. It is said by them, that God will always honor free will!! If in fact this is the case as freewillers say, how can a freewiller pray to God to save another person? Is this not up to the freewill of the person? Would God violate freewill? If God intervenes in a persons choice...is it freewill? If God will not intervene...why pray?

 

[Jarthur001]

That is funny James... you pray that God will violate their freewill.
Why pray for God will do what God will do, will He not.
He will not be moved by your prayers. Your prayers should be...God show me who you will change today so I can pray in accordance with your will.

I will pray for the 'whosoevers' that I may with compassion and love speak to the lost that are dying on the path to Hell. And as Paul states "...that I might save some..." and the ever cherished "...prayer for ALL MEN..."

God tells us to pray. God also lays people on our hearts to pray. This is God at work, not your own mind. Part of Gods plan is pray. I are to depend or God and God only. We are to praise God. We are to ask God for our needs.

The movement will be in man, not God. This is seen in Jonah 3:9.

 

[Jarthur001]

With your theology, you should ask yourselves that question first and not question other people's salvation.

I pray for I think God can change peoples hearts, so that they will believe.

Do you? This is all I'm asking

 

[J.D.]

It is the Non-Cal that Prays to KNOW what that WILL is and to search it out that we may know what is the good and perfect and acceptable will of God.

Actually, this is a good description of why anyone prays, and it is perfectly calvinistic. We are seeking HIS will, not our own. And, we seek to KNOW it.